D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[dave2008]

Both require you actually SEE the target casting a spell.

That is where you are wrong by RAW. Counterspell requires you to see the spell, Dread Counterspell does not, according to the RAW and assuming the "proper" use of the English language.

...but you could even just remove these phrases and they are virtual identical.

They do look virtually identical, but it is the subtle difference that makes a big impact and how you are supposed to understand the sentences.

Look, you previously asked me (in another thread) to take them (counter and dread) to an English professor and diagram the sentence. Three people (one being an English major) in this thread have diagrammed the sentence to show that your interruption was incorrect. Yet you seem to want to ignore this information and talk about your opinion and feel instead of what the English language tells us the RAW is saying. If you can't admit that the actual phrasing of counterspell and dread counterspell do indeed say different things, whether you believe that was the intent or not, then I can't help you. I guess ignorance is bliss.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In the age of copy-paste it seems implausible that a change in wording occurs "by mistake".

 

[DND_Reborn]

Natural language is the use of the language as the people using that language normally perceive its meaning. "Diagraming" the sentence to show how its meaning varies "technically" from natural language is pointless. Natural language use often not proper and people say and write things "incorrectly" all the time but the meaning is naturally understood.

In the two examples I wrote, people using English in normal context would not see a difference between those two statements, as (at least) @LadyElect seems to understand that (but then went on to change the wording with a different example, which isn't how either feature is written...). To say "that is" in this context simple means "in the process of."

Anyway, so @Parmandur and @dave2008, can Vecna use Dread Counterspell on someone NOT casting a spell? Because according to "your diagraming" he should be able to, all that matters is he "sees a creature". Frankly, IMO that's ridiculous since the purpose of the feature is to stop spells and the natural language makes "interrupt a creature he can see casting a spell" what is important really. After all, if the creature isn't casting a spell, Vecna makes no check, and the creature takes no damage.

Other than those two phrases, "that is" and "in the process of", the features core are the same: "interrupt a creature (he/you) can see casting a spell". The only real difference is Vecna can use it without the 60' limit.

I have a minor in English and have taught English at University level while in the Peace Corps in Europe (Ukraine, specifically) and a master's in Education and a Master's in Mathematics. I know language (ESPECIALLY ENGLISH) can have meanings "twisted" just like statistics can. When you get down to technically analyzing statements, you are going beyond the natural use of the language.

OK, so you think the fact the dread spell was written different was a mistake?

Not a "mistake" so much as just a different use of figures of speech and wording. There are many ways to convey an idea using slightly different wording, but the meaning is the same.

Now, let me ask this: if Dread Counterspell was written "who is" instead of "that is", would that make any difference?

Look, you previously asked me (in another thread) to take them (counter and dread) to an English professor and diagram the sentence.

Did I? It doesn't really sound like something I would do, especially since I don't really care that much, so maybe it was someone else? Or it might have been me... You'd have to dig up the post--I don't recall it anyway.

 

[LadyElect]

but then went on to change the wording with a different example, which isn't how either feature is written...

I gave an example written like Dread Counterspell, where sight is a clause following the secondary subject rather than the noun-verb that is modified by the clauses following.

But yes, “that is” as a freestanding pronoun has no impact on the read if you were to change that.

 

[Krachek]

Battle against Vecna is resolved in a court of law!

 

[dave2008]

Natural language is the use of the language as the people using that language normally perceive its meaning. "Diagraming" the sentence to show how its meaning varies "technically" from natural language is pointless. Natural language use often not proper and people say and write things "incorrectly" all the time but the meaning is naturally understood.

In the two examples I wrote, people using English in normal context would not see a difference between those two statements, as (at least) @LadyElect seems to understand that (but then went on to change the wording with a different example, which isn't how either feature is written...). To say "that is" in this context simple means "in the process of."

Anyway, so @Parmandur and @dave2008, can Vecna use Dread Counterspell on someone NOT casting a spell? Because according to "your diagraming" he should be able to, all that matters is he "sees a creature". Frankly, IMO that's ridiculous since the purpose of the feature is to stop spells and the natural language makes "interrupt a creature he can see casting a spell" what is important really. After all, if the creature isn't casting a spell, Vecna makes no check, and the creature takes no damage.

Other than those two phrases, "that is" and "in the process of", the features core are the same: "interrupt a creature (he/you) can see casting a spell". The only real difference is Vecna can use it without the 60' limit.

I have a minor in English and have taught English at University level while in the Peace Corps in Europe (Ukraine, specifically) and a master's in Education and a Master's in Mathematics. I know language (ESPECIALLY ENGLISH) can have meanings "twisted" just like statistics can. When you get down to technically analyzing statements, you are going beyond the natural use of the language.


Not a "mistake" so much as just a different use of figures of speech and wording. There are many ways to convey an idea using slightly different wording, but the meaning is the same.

Now, let me ask this: if Dread Counterspell was written "who is" instead of "that is", would that make any difference?


Did I? It doesn't really sound like something I would do, especially since I don't really care that much, so maybe it was someone else? Or it might have been me... You'd have to dig up the post--I don't recall it anyway.

It is enough for me to fully understand that you cannot admit the truth. I was done with this thread before I summoned you and I shouldn't have come back. I had a bit to much faith in humanity I guess.

 

[Maxperson]

The DM should only say "hits your AC of 15" in a party where no one can change it. In a party with "Shield" or "Silvery Barbs" the DM should instead say "Y is attacking Player Z. They have an X on the d20. Do you have any Reaction to that attack?" It is up to the players to guess Y's bonus to hit, decide if the attack will hit Z, and chose to cast "Shield" or "Silvery Barbs" or another similar spell.

Why should we follow this house rule?

 

[Maxperson]

In the age of copy-paste it seems implausible that a change in wording occurs "by mistake".

I don't know that it was a mistake, but given the number of issues requiring Sage Advice and that still need Sage Advice to respond to, it's very plausible that it could be a mistake.

For myself, I'm okay with running it the way it's written even if it is a mistake, since it's 1) very Vecna to be able to do it, and 2) fits Vecna's ability to just know all capabilities of casters without a roll. He can look at you and just know if you've used up half of your spell slots for the day. Why would knowing you're casting a spell without components be difficult for him to see?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

not limited to 60-ft range, and it's not a spell, so it can't be counterspelled

this seems to be the biggest buff... the damage is nice icying though

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The question that came up was whether Vecna could take this reaction to interrupt someone casting a subtle spell, as there would be no visible spell components to alert him that a spell is being cast. This works for regular counterspell, but it's been suggested that due to the slightly different wording and Vecna's expertise and sensitivity to magic he'd be able to tell that a spell was being cast even without such tells.

my understanding is that the adventure allows him to always know but the stat block if you move it to your own world does not