D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Maxperson]

This keeps coming up, but I don’t think anyone disputes it? Like, I think we all agree, if a creature is casting a spell, and Vecna sees the creature, the conditions for Dread Counterspell to function are met. The question is, if the spell is subtle and has no components, does Vecna know he has the option to cast Dread Counterspell, and if he doesn’t, can the DM Decide he uses it anyway?

By RAW he does have that option as there is no requirement for him to see any components being used. HOW is the only unanswered question. I'm content to have him just sense the magic being attempted and/or it being intuitive due to his penchant for ferreting out secrets.

And it was disputed by the person I quoted who said he didn't see any difference between the two.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, so I was aware of that text, it was what moved me from “convinced it doesn’t work” to “on the fence.” Because that does seem to indicate that he is meant to have special awareness of magic that other creatures lack. However, it doesn’t say he’s aware that the target is casting a spell, only that he doesn’t need to make an ability check to identify what spell it is. This could be meant only to circumvent the optional spell identification rule from Xanathar’s Guide, not to allow him to detect a spell being cast subtly. Hence my current fence-sitting position.

That portion says that he can look at an 11th level conjurer and just know what spell levels he has, how many slots are left to use, what spells he has memorized and what his class abilities are without a check. All of that information falls under, "Vecna can ascertain the capabilities of spellcasters and identify the spells they cast without making an ability check."

If he can know all of that without making a check, what makes you think he isn't going to know when said caster is casting a spell via the subtle spell that he know the caster has available to use(through said ascertaining of capabilities formerly mentioned)?

 

[Maxperson]

Oh he'd do it in combat all right (just not with him)!

I can just see the wizard player going "that's the 3rd time my shield has been counterspelled and I'm about to die! What the #@!?# is going on?"

Edit: and he can do it to 2-3 casters in the same round so the party REALLY won't know what's going on and might start to panic.

It gets even worse if he's scrying on them and he sends minions to fight the group. He can be countering the spells that they are casting at his minions and up the challenge level by a whole lot.

 

[Parmandur]

That portion says that he can look at an 11th level conjurer and just know what spell levels he has, how many slots are left to use, what spells he has memorized and what his class abilities are without a check. All of that information falls under, "Vecna can ascertain the capabilities of spellcasters and identify the spells they cast without making an ability check."

If he can know all of that without making a check, what makes you think he isn't going to know when said caster is casting a spell vial the subtle spell that he know the caster has available to use(through said ascertaining of capabilities formerly mentioned)?

As written, it helps a DM play a one-step-ahead supergenius.

 

[Maxperson]

That is literally circular though, and therefore fallacious reasoning.

The problem is that fallacious does no equate to being wrong. It may be circular, but in this case he can still do it, so it's correct.

 

[Parmandur]

The problem is that fallacious does no equate to being wrong. It may be circular, but in this case he can still do it, so it's correct.

Framed.logically:

No Mage can cast Counterspell without knowing that there is casting occurring

Vecna cast a Counterspell.

Ergo, Vecna is a Mage who knew that casting was occurring.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe he just spams Dread Counterspell as a reaction to EVERY spellcasters turn as a default - why not?

Heck, maybe that's why Kas eventually revolted - "Oh my god - would you JUST shut up!"

It's a theory.

As Kas walks in on his master, he notes the distant look on Vecna's face.

Kas: "My lord the...
Vecna: "Vec-NAH!"
Kas: "plans we made..."
Vecna: "Vec-NAH!"
(Kas grits his teeth)
Kas: "are reaching..."
Vecna: "Vec-NAH! Vec-NAH, Vec-NAH!"
(Kas reaches for his sword)

 

[DND_Reborn]

@DND_Reborn, at least 3 people on this thread have diagrammed the sentence structure of Dread Counterspell and Counterspell to show you the difference. Have they convinced you or do you still think they are the same?

Just asking as we are going off the rails here, as usual, and I was wondering the OP was actually satisfied or not.

No, not satisfied really. They are the same as I see it. I see no difference as far as Subtle Spell is concerned.

For example:

By using a Sorcery Point for Subtle Spell, you aren't visibly doing anything until three glowing darts are willed into existence. So, how would Vecna (or anyone) know you are casting a spell, because you aren't actually SEEN casting a spell IMO. Both require you actually SEE the target casting a spell.

(From the other thread...)

Both have identical phrases: to interrupt a creature + (he/you) see + casting a spell.

Even phrases such as "in the process of" and "that is" are equivalent, even if not identical. I am sure people will argue they aren't, but you could even just remove these phrases and they are virtual identical.

NOW, if a spell has a material component, and you don't already have it (or a spell focus) in hand, but get one out as part of your turn, Venca (or another enemy) might think you are casting and try to counterspell it...

Anyway, IMO ultimately if Subtle Spell stops Counterspell, it stops Dread Counterspell. But, then again, there are 9 more pages of responses since I last check the thread so perhaps someone will convince me yet...

 

[DND_Reborn]

I see a man that is going to the market.
I see a man in the process of going to the market.

What the f*#$ is the difference?

FWIW, I created this thread to get the conversation AWAY from the other thread, not to be convinced that my view is correct or incorrect.

I know it's correct. (j/k)

 

[James Gasik]

It's not very clear what Subtle Spell does at all, if you want to be honest. I mean, it says you can cast spells without using somatic or verbal components. Which means you can cast spells when your hands are tied or you can't speak.

But the ability never actually says it prevents the use of Counterspell! Let's not forget the long strange trip of justifying what someone has to do to identify what spell is being cast in the first place (like needing to use one's reaction to identify it, per Xanathar's, making it impossible to identify a spell you wanted to counter)!

And as is always brought up, some spells, like shield, let you counter things that should be impossible- like making a hit into a miss (really, should a character understand what Armor Class is, and intuitively understand exactly how much protection they need to avoid being harmed?) or being able to deflect magic missile sent their way.

These are abilities that only really function because of metagame knowledge. If players had no knowledge of attack roll results, you'd see shield used a lot less often, I bet. It's up to the DM to interpret what a character logically knows at any given point.

In the case of Vecna, we have a godlike being who has knowledge and secrets as his bag, who has, in the past, abused loopholes and exploited the underpinnings of reality to get what he wants. If a DM says that Vecna's intellect is such that he can counterspell things he shouldn't be aware of, then he can.

If, on the contrary, you think that's a bridge too far, then he can't. All we can say is he theoretically has that ability.

I'm reminded of an amusing bit from the Amber diceless roleplaying rulebook. A player has decided to ambush one of the greatest known warriors in the multiverse by attacking him while invisible. To his surprise, the attack is parried. When asked how that is possible, the GM glibly replies "he's the kind of person who has practiced parrying invisible swords".