D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Charlaquin]

I tell you, I'm a little (only slightly) frustrated that from my perspective, you've been given tons of textual evidence on how it's supposed to work (I admit, not by me, I care more about story and appealing to reason). You just don't seem to "care".

The textual evidence I have seen so far is…

• the wording of dread counterspell and counterspell, which are different, possibly indicating intent for them to work differently. I do agree that, as worded, dread counterspell seems to work whether Vecna perceives the casting or not, but this does not indicate whether or not Vecna would be aware that it would work.
• The wording of the Mage Slayer Feat, which does not mention needing to see the spell being cast, which gives cause to doubt that the difference in wording between counterspell and dread counter spell is an indication of intent for it to function differently.
• The passage from the adventure, which says that Vecna can tell what spell is being cast without an ability check, but does not say that he can tell if a spell is being cast when it has no material components.

The third point is by far the most compelling, and moved me from “the text clearly doesn’t allow Vecna to know a spell is being cast” to “the text is ambiguous on whether or not Vecna knows a spell is being cast, but I could reasonably see that having been the intent.

I’m pretty sure that’s about it. If you have other textual evidence that might suggest that’s the intent (or that it isn’t), by all means share it.

 

[Mort]

If only Dread Counterspell was worded similarly to Shield, we would all be on the same page. Maybe...

How is dread Counterepell worded more ambiguously than shield?

There is little question what it says.

The biggest hurdle seems to be "how would Vecna know to counter?"

And the answer of "it doesn't matter, the writeup says he does and seems to expect you to fill in the how if you wish to.." isn't good enough for everyone - even though it's all we'll get.

 

[Charlaquin]

With dread counterspell there are two conditions. You need to see a creature and that creature needs to be casting a spell. It does not say or imply that you need to see the spellcasting itself. Only the creature.

With counterspell you need to see a creature casting a spell, which says you need to see both.

This keeps coming up, but I don’t think anyone disputes it? Like, I think we all agree, if a creature is casting a spell, and Vecna sees the creature, the conditions for Dread Counterspell to function are met. The question is, if the spell is subtle and has no components, does Vecna know he has the option to cast Dread Counterspell, and if he doesn’t, can the DM Decide he uses it anyway?

 

[Charlaquin]

How is dread Counterepell worded more ambiguously than shield?

There is little question what it says.

The biggest hurdle seems to be "how would Vecna know to counter?"

And the answer of "it doesn't matter, the writeup says he does and seems to expect you to fill in the how if you wish to.." isn't good enough for everyone - even though it's all we'll get.

No, the writeup doesn’t say he knows to counter. It seems clear that if he countered, it would work. What’s unclear is if he knows that, and if he doesn’t, can the DM decide to have him use it anyway?

 

[Mort]

No, the writeup doesn’t say he knows to counter. It seems clear that if he countered, it would work. What’s unclear is if he knows that, and if he doesn’t, can the DM decide to have him use it anyway?

I've answered this. If you treat dread Counterepell like shield, Vecna doesn't even have to know prior to the casting that the spell was cast. There's no reason not to, since the ability works SOMEHOW.

 

[dave2008]

My last comment here. I don't have twitter, but someone who does could ask the writers of the adventure:

This adventure was co-written by Mike Bernier and Michael Galvis:

Mike Bernier (@arcane_eye) is the founder of Arcane Eye, a site focused on providing useful tips and tricks to all those involved in the world of D&D. Outside of writing for Arcane Eye, Mike spends most of his time playing games, hiking with his girlfriend, and tending the veritable jungle of houseplants that have invaded his house.

Michael Galvis (@michaelgalvis) is a tabletop content producer for D&D Beyond. He is a longtime Dungeon Master who enjoys horror films and all things fantasy and sci-fi. When he isn’t in the DM’s seat or rolling dice as his anxious halfling sorcerer, he’s playing League of Legends and Magic: The Gathering with his husband. They live together in Los Angeles with their adorable dog, Quentin.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Which is what I’ve been saying this whole time. It’s not clear.

I don't think anyone has argued that it's clear. It is clearly NOT clear. Without further clarification, the only thing you can do is make a ruling.

The only facts we have is RAW says he can counter a spell that is being cast by a caster he can see. It strongly suggests (by use of the word "that") that he doesn't need to know that the caster is casting.

RAW, as far as I know, is silent on the subject of how to tell if a character knows something or not. This can lead you to conclude that he doesn't know, or that he does know.

Heck, Subtle Spell doesn't say anything RAW about anyone knowing if you're casting a spell or not, just because it removes components. People have inferred that, and it's been confirmed as RAI by Crawford, but it's not implicit.

Ultimately, like many 5e discussions, it's up to your DM to rule.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

No, the writeup doesn’t say he knows to counter. It seems clear that if he countered, it would work. What’s unclear is if he knows that, and if he doesn’t, can the DM decide to have him use it anyway?

Personally, I wouldn't want him to be able to do it if he didn't know, but I have no problem assuming that he does know.

I honestly don't think "subtle spell" is subtle enough for the ancient archlich who's better-at-it-than-you-are-feeble-spellcaster.

 

[Parmandur]

This keeps coming up, but I don’t think anyone disputes it? Like, I think we all agree, if a creature is casting a spell, and Vecna sees the creature, the conditions for Dread Counterspell to function are met. The question is, if the spell is subtle and has no components, does Vecna know he has the option to cast Dread Counterspell, and if he doesn’t, can the DM Decide he uses it anyway?

It seems clear from the text that Vecna's knowledge isn't part of the equation at all. The simplest reason for this is...it isn't a variable. Whatever the exact relationship might be, and I think it leaves room for interpretation on the why, but Vecna is able to act simply seeing the creature casting irregardless of anything else. Uf one feels this needs knowledge, then...Vecna knows. Always.

 

[Parmandur]

No, the writeup doesn’t say he knows to counter. It seems clear that if he countered, it would work. What’s unclear is if he knows that, and if he doesn’t, can the DM decide to have him use it anyway?

It seems to clearly imply that if Vecna sees...Vecna knows. Of one assumes knowledge is a prerequisite for the Reaction, which is stated nowhere.