D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

[Thomas Shey]

All RPGs involve authorship. There's a point in time when something or other is not part of the shared fiction, and then there's a subsequent point when it is.

The inventory system in BitD isn't special in this respect.

I'm not @Ovinomancer, but I have some thoughts about this.

I think anyone who criticises a RPG because it involves authorship hasn't thought very hard about what happens during their own play.

For instance, in D&D, when the PCs "go shopping" all sorts of stuff "pops into existence" without having been pre-established - iron spikes, lengths of rope, weapons, etc - and the players write it down on their equipment lists.

So someone criticising BitD because players are allowed to write stuff down on their equipment list seems to be making a pretty silly point.

I think this kind of ignores both questions of temporality and who does the authorship. Now, its legitimate to feel the latter is irrelevant, but it very clearly isn't to some people.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why is a length of rope being written on an equipment list while the PC's are playing out "downtime" not "popping into existence", but writing the same thing down during a heist is?

In both cases, fiction is being authored and recorded. In both cases we know where and how the PC came by the rope. In neither case is their any retconning.

Because in the second example, there's no opportunity in the fiction of the moment to have acquired this item; it is retconed into existance as needed. Downtime is usually a fairly long span of time that is abstracted, allowing ample opportunity for a PC to swing by the general store (or whatever) at some point.

Authorship does not answer this issue.

 

[pemerton]

I think this kind of ignores both questions of temporality and who does the authorship.

What issue of temporality?

In the downtime play, we imagine the PC buying some rope, and the player writes it on the PC sheet.

In FitD, we imagine the PC buying some rope, and the player writes it on the PC sheet.

In both cases, the writing down is a record of a thing that the PC did.

In neither case is their any retconning.

Now, its legitimate to feel the latter is irrelevant, but it very clearly isn't to some people.

I don't know what the latter is.

In D&D play that I'm familiar with, it is players, not GM's, who maintain their PCs' equipment lists.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Good point, and I would grudgingly accept it as a player. As a DM however I'd incorporate in the downtime between adventures at least an offhand mention that some magical study took place before the level up. I'm not really a fan of leveling up mid-adventure either.

Eh. Levelling is as much about the fact the way D&D-derivatives handle advancement is much more big and chunky than picking up new skills and advancing them than it is in real life (or frankly, a lot of other styles of games). Its easy enough to see any particular point when it occurs being just a recognition that stuff has now occurred; there's nothing intrinsic about downtime that makes it better.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think @Ovinomancer is commenting on the ostensible reasons that are being advanced. And is pointing out that they appear to make no sense - because if they were taken seriously, then they would support different preference rankings from those @RhaezDaevan is evincing.

And that's fine. But it's still presented as "you shouldn't feel the way you feel".

 

[pemerton]

Because in the second example, there's no opportunity in the fiction of the moment to have acquired this item

What's your basis for this claim? What rule in BitD are you referring to?

it is retconed into existance as needed.

What is being retconned? When was it established that the PC did not have any rope in their gear load-out?

Downtime is usually a fairly long span of time that is abstracted, allowing ample opportunity for a PC to swing by the general store (or whatever) at some point.

Are you talking here about D&D, or BitD? I can't tell.

 

[Thomas Shey]

What issue of temporality?

In the downtime play, we imagine the PC buying some rope, and the player writes it on the PC sheet.

In FitD, we imagine the PC buying some rope, and the player writes it on the PC sheet.

In both cases, the writing down is a record of a thing that the PC did.

In neither case is their any retconning.

Not retconning per se, but its still a case of doing it out of temporal sequence. Again, you aren't required to let that bother you, but if very much does bother some people.

I don't know what the latter is.

In D&D play that I'm familiar with, it is players, not GM's, who maintain their PCs' equipment lists.

But its GMs, not players, who make the equipment available.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why is a length of rope being written on an equipment list while the PC's are playing out "downtime" not "popping into existence", but writing the same thing down during a heist is?

In both cases, fiction is being authored and recorded. In both cases we know where and how the PC came by the rope. In neither case is their any retconning.

IMO, being logically inconsistent - assuming that's what's happening shouldn't be construed as being insulting.

Though I don't think there's actually logical inconsistency here. We've talked about authorship before and how it's much more than whether it occurs but who's doing the authoring, what gives them the power to do so, what limitations do they have on their authorship, what principles they must follow regarding it, are there any ulterior motives behind the authorhsip, and even when it happens in relation to the fiction.

Take that last one - 'when it happens in relation to the fiction'. In downtime there isn't any immediate problems that the authorship is solving - that's why it's downtime. Authoring a rope exactly when it comes up that you need one is authorship that's solving an immediate problem.

TLDR: Not all authorships are equal.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What's your basis for this claim? What rule in BitD are you referring to?

What is being retconned? When was it established that the PC did not have any rope in their gear load-out?

Are you talking here about D&D, or BitD? I can't tell.

I'm talking about D&D, which I believe is the comparison point to BitD being used here (as in, how each game handles the same concept). If I'm wrong about that, I apologize.

As for the rest, to my understanding, the PC in BitD made no indication that they had acquired the rope until active play during the heist, when they needed it. At which point, it is retconed as having been in their kit all along. That is in stark contrast to a game like D&D, and I can easily understand someone having a problem with it.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

Why is a length of rope being written on an equipment list while the PC's are playing out "downtime" not "popping into existence", but writing the same thing down during a heist is?

In both cases, fiction is being authored and recorded. In both cases we know where and how the PC came by the rope. In neither case is their any retconning.

I think you're focused on the wrong detail. It's the timing that bothers me. The fact the non-descript items suddenly materialize into the exact thing the character needs in that moment is what feels like a retcon. If magic is involved, perhaps I could accept it but otherwise it rubs me the wrong way.

You're free to love it, cherish it, and even wear it like a hat while walking down the street. I prefer to avoid it.