D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Hriston]

Of a threat hat they can see? That's RAW man. They can see the chest, so being suspicious makes it a threat that has been noticed.

A threat hasn't been noticed. They are only aware of an ordinary chest. Being suspicious of an ordinary chest doesn't make it attack you.

You did. You claimed that casting a hostile spell automatically made the mimic aware of the hostility(which isn't in the spell description) and it would attack. That's making it aware of the spell being cast. It has no ability to discern a spell over normal words(which can also be hostile).

The cleric's player has declared an action to attack the chest. This declaration starts combat. Because the party is unaware of (hasn't noticed) the mimic, they are surprised in the first round. The mimic gets to go first. This is what I have claimed.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

They are only aware of an ordinary chest.

They do not know the chest is ordinary. All they know is that it is something that looks like a chest. The behaviour of the party clearly indicates that they believe it is a threat.

Because the party is unaware of (hasn't noticed) the mimic, they are surprised in the first round. The mimic gets to go first. This is what I have claimed.

And it is nonsense. Players never KNOW what a monster is, they only ever know what it looks like. It's up to the players to decide what they believe it to be. If they have their weapons at the ready they clearly believe it is a mimic. And if they believe it is a mimic they aren't going to be surprised when it sprouts pseudopods and attacks them.

 

[Hriston]

They do not know the chest is ordinary. All they know is that it is something that looks like a chest. The behaviour of the party clearly indicates that they believe it is a threat.

Correct, they are aware of/know it is something that looks indistinguishable from an ordinary chest. That's as far as their awareness extends with respect to the mimic. For the purpose of determining surprise, it doesn't matter what they believe. They haven't noticed a threat.

And it is nonsense. Players never KNOW what a monster is, they only ever know what it looks like. It's up to the players to decide what they believe it to be. If they have their weapons at the ready they clearly believe it is a mimic. And if they believe it is a mimic they aren't going to be surprised when it sprouts pseudopods and attacks them.

For the purpose of determining surprise, it doesn't matter what they believe. They haven't noticed a threat. They've only noticed something that looks indistinguishable from an ordinary chest.

 

[Maxperson]

A threat hasn't been noticed. They are only aware of an ordinary chest. Being suspicious of an ordinary chest doesn't make it attack you.

By that definition there is no such thing as a threat unless something is actively taking a hostile(threating) action. A human walking down the street is no threat. A dog walking by is no threat. They are only potential threats...........................................like the chest.

You've just made it impossible to notice a threat until initiative is rolled.

The cleric's player has declared an action to attack the chest. This declaration starts combat. Because the party is unaware of (hasn't noticed) the mimic, they are surprised in the first round. The mimic gets to go first. This is what I have claimed.

And since the Mimic didn't notice a threat(he can't tell what spellcasting is), it just sits there on it's initiative number surprised. It can't act, since it has nothing to act on by some words it doesn't understand and an action it doesn't understand is hostile. It can't attack first without you declaring that it spontaneously knows, without explanation, that spellcasting is happening.

 

[Hriston]

By that definition there is no such thing as a threat unless something is actively taking a hostile(threating) action. A human walking down the street is no threat. A dog walking by is no threat. They are only potential threats...........................................like the chest.

You've just made it impossible to notice a threat until initiative is rolled.

I think this is more or less correct, but I would move the timing back to the action declaration that starts combat, which is before initiative is rolled. Is there some part of the game outside of combat starting where you would need to determine if someone has noticed a threat?

And since the Mimic didn't notice a threat(he can't tell what spellcasting is), it just sits there on it's initiative number surprised. It can't act, since it has nothing to act on by some words it doesn't understand and an action it doesn't understand is hostile. It can't attack first without you declaring that it spontaneously knows, without explanation, that spellcasting is happening.

There's nothing in the OP to indicate that the mimic hasn't noticed the party. Once the player of the cleric declares an action to attack the "chest", the cleric is a threat that has been noticed.

 

[Maxperson]

I think this is more or less correct, but I would move the timing back to the action declaration that starts combat, which is before initiative is rolled. Is there some part of the game outside of combat starting where you would need to determine if someone has noticed a threat?

You've just made it so that everyone is always surprised. If you can't notice a threat before the threating act which triggers initiative, then there is no chance to notice and avoid the surprise regardless of any stealth/perception rolls. If neither side is bothering to be stealthy, then they see and hear each other, but since there are no hostile acts yet, nobody has noticed a threat.

It's pretty clear that the surprise rules are talking about potential threats and that you can only avoid surprise if you notice said potential threat before initiative is rolled. That would of course include chests which are all potential threats.

There's nothing in the OP to indicate that the mimic hasn't noticed the party.

That doesn't matter. Under your definition it has not noticed a threat. It has only noticed a group of people.

Once the player of the cleric declares an action to attack the "chest", the cleric is a threat that has been noticed.

Nope. Since it can't tell the difference between a spell and someone speaking Portuguese, having an animated conversation with his hands, it has not noticed a threat and would automatically be surprised.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Correct, they are aware of/know it is something that looks indistinguishable from an ordinary chest. That's as far as their awareness extends with respect to the mimic.

And if they see an ordinary chest all they know is that it is indistinguishable from a mimic. That is as far as their awareness extends to ordinary chests.

They haven't noticed a threat.

D&D works like this: The DM narrates what the PCs see, then the players tell the DM how their characters react. If the players say (or imply) that they think something is a threat then they are not surprised if it attacks them.

If they see a troll, they do not know it is a threat, it could be a friendly troll. A hostile troll is indistinguishable from a friendly troll.

All that stuff about "perceiving a threat" is about enemies that are hidden from view. It has nothing to do with knowing if something is dangerous or not.

A player character, Psycho McMurdurhobo, sees a commoner. He does not perceive a threat, because the commoner is not a threat. Psycho pulls out his axe and swings it at the commoner. Is Psycho surprised?

 

[Baron Opal II]

The cleric's player, suspicious the chest might be a mimic, decides to cast toll the dead on the chest.

The DM knows the chest is, in fact, a mimic. Toll the dead only targets creatures.

How would you resolve this as DM?

About thirty years ago, I was running a game and the wizard player said something similar to "like a boss I stride into the room and shatter the prisoners' shackles with a magic missile spell!" This was a higher level AD&D game, so many missiles, as well as a moment of personal glory for him. Magic missile only targets "creatures".

And, by the gods, he exulted in his triumph. How could I say no? Ever since then when spells affect a "target" it doesn't necessarily mean a "creature". Likewise as above, you can't charm a chest, but I've since extrapolated effects for other spells when cast at a non-applicable target. Sometimes there isn't any discernable effect, and the characters have gained some information thereby.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

About thirty years ago, I was running a game and the wizard player said something similar to "like a boss I stride into the room and shatter the prisoners' shackles with a magic missile spell!" This was a higher level AD&D game, so many missiles, as well as a moment of personal glory for him. Magic missile only targets "creatures".

And, by the gods, he exulted in his triumph. How could I say no? Ever since then when spells affect a "target" it doesn't necessarily mean a "creature". Likewise as above, you can't charm a chest, but I've since extrapolated effects for other spells when cast at a non-applicable target. Sometimes there isn't any discernable effect, and the characters have gained some information thereby.

You are kinder than me. Running The Styles (5e) the wizard said "I Magic Missile the hull of the ship to let the water out." To which I replied, "your missiles fizzle ineffectually against the wooden planks".

 

[Baron Opal II]

You are kinder than me. Running The Styles (5e) the wizard said "I Magic Missile the hull of the ship to let the water out." To which I replied, "your missiles fizzle ineffectually against the wooden planks".

Yeah, this was a whole backstory / character arc thing; hostages needed to be rescued, villain squirming on his throne with forces in disarray. The two teams talking smack before the final showdown. That sort of thing.

I figured something regularly described as "bolts of force" from 3e onward (2e?) should be able to break things. Having some standards from 3e for the number of hp objects could have helped matters there.