D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Reynard]

Makes me wonder how many reported posts will be waiting for @Umbran after lunch...

I think we have all been pretty civilized, even if many of us have disagreed pretty strongly. This thread has been intense but it hasn't be bad.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Eh, whether you’re playing a self-insert or a detailed character who you see as significantly different than yourself, I would still call it an avatar. Your Skyrim character and Nathan Drake are both equally game avatars. But, if the word choice bothers you, just pretend I wrote “character strength” instead. It doesn’t make any difference to the overall meaning of my post.

it still leaves me not wanting to play your game whether i take a arrow to the knèe or am played by spiderman.

I want the character skill to matter. In a perfect world none of my skill or knowladge would bleed over (not that we could do that)

 

[Reynard]

Tying your shoes is a DC 0 Use Rope skill check. It generally can't be failed except by characters with penalties on their skill check and even then only rarely.

It is, however, a trained only skill. I know because I raised 2 kids...

 

[Celebrim]

In a perfect world none of my skill or knowledge would bleed over (not that we could do that)

Then in your "perfect world" you would watch the character play itself and make its own choices entirely without your interaction.

You could in fact do that. You could set the parameters of your character at the beginning of the story and then we could let a bot run your character based on your parameters. There would be a lot of tedious rolling and no meaningful choices, so you'd probably want to automate it with a computer program but it could be done.

 

[Mannahnin]

I want the character skill to matter. In a perfect world none of my skill or knowladge would bleed over (not that we could do that)

Every person in this thread who has written in support of the "players describe their actions, GM calls for rolls if needed" play structure laid out by the 5E rules has made clear how and why character skill still matters.

 

[Charlaquin]

Tying your shoes is a DC 0 Use Rope skill check. It generally can't be failed except by characters with penalties on their skill check and even then only rarely.

As a GM I probably wouldn't ask for a skill check because there are no consequences at stake. Unlike your experiences as a 5 year old, untied shoes aren't actually particularly a problem, as most people's stride is longer than their laces once they get up to age 12 or so. It might be a problem if you were climbing over moving machinery, but I feel that's better left to color.

However, as a GM I definitely embrace the power of skill checks with DCs below 10 as an interesting way to add color to encounters and to encourage skill breadth.

That’s definitely not how I would rule it. At my table, tying your shoes would just be an action declaration. One that would rarely if ever have a reasonable chance of failure or meaningful stakes, and therefore rarely if ever requires a check. But either way, I can’t imagine most players asking to make a check to do it. Because what you want isn’t really to make a check; what you want is what you imagine the results of a successful check will be. So tell me what that is and how your character tries to make it happen. The worst thing that could happen is you have to make the check you were asking me to make.

 

[Reynard]

Every person in this thread who has written in support of the "players describe their actions, GM calls for rolls if needed" play structure laid out by the 5E rules has made clear how and why character skill still matters.

@GMforPowergamers has a specific playstyle fueled by specific experiences. Their group doing it right for them, so all is good on that front, I think.

 

[Charlaquin]

it still leaves me not wanting to play your game whether i take a arrow to the knèe or am played by spiderman.

I want the character skill to matter. In a perfect world none of my skill or knowladge would bleed over (not that we could do that)

Whereas I want the player’s decisions to be the primary factor in their success and failure, with the fickle dice being used as necessary when an outcome can’t otherwise be determined.

 

[Mannahnin]

Every person in this thread who has written in support of the "players describe their actions, GM calls for rolls if needed" play structure laid out by the 5E rules has made clear how and why character skill still matters.

Let's go back for a minute to the example of the paladin and the rogue who want to hide when the ogre is about to enter the room.

Depending on how and where the characters hide, a roll may or may not be necessary, and there will be different risks and benefits.

If the paladin (heavy armor, disadvantage, low dex) tries to hide somewhere that needs a roll, he's going to have bad odds. The opposite for the rogue. Character skill matters.

However certain player-declared actions may obviate the need for a roll. If either player declares that their character is going to hide in the closet and close the door, being completely out of LOS, they probably won't need a Stealth check at all. That's good! OTOH, if they want to observe what the ogre does in the room, they've got no chance. Downside. If they want to listen to what the ogre's doing, maybe they can learn something, but again, that door's going to be in the way obstructing the effort.

The rogue, with their good check, may want to instead stay in the room. Hide under the table or behind the cloak rack or someplace. Where they have to make a roll, but they're right there easily able to spy on the ogre, and more easily jump out and make a surprise attack if they want to.

If the player is not clear on what furniture is there, where their character could possibly hide, etc., then certainly the DM should be free with that info. The player can make an informed decision, and the DM can then adjudicate the situation easily, reveal any dangers without the player feeling like there was a "gotcha" or they were forced to harm themselves (maybe it turns out that there's a venomous snake in the closet!), and call for any rolls needed.

Edit: Maybe if @GMforPowergamers is tired, or a brand new player and doesn't understand their options, they flat out ask me "Where can I potentially hide?" and I tell them "There's a table you could fit under, a cloak rack in the corner, a closet with a door you can close, and a shadowy corner that's in deep gloom from the lantern on the table, the only source of light in the room."

Then they can tell me which of those four options they want. The table and cloak rack require checks. Same with the shadowy corner, but if the ogre moves into that half of the room, they automatically see the character there with darkvision, because there's nothing to actually hide behind. I may know this ahead of time, but I'm going to feel pretty awkward if I told the player their character hid in the corner, rather than letting them pick their poison.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My answer is “your passive Perception represents your character looking around for danger. If you want to do something else to try and determine if there’s danger you may have missed while looking around, you have to tell me what it is you’re doing to try and figure that out.”

I want to actively look but I'm not sure how my character would do it

No, I get it. You want to make a check, because you consider checks to be the way to accomplish goals.

right I want the character skill to prop up a lack of skill I in real life have

What I’m trying to express to you is I don’t use checks that way. I use action declarations to determine if a goal is accomplished,

but you don't like that my action declaration doesn't meet some standard of yours... "Look around isn't enough"

So it’s weird to want to make a check, because it suggests you want a risk of a bad thing happening.

I have a task in mind. I am trying to across the table tell my friend that my character can do X but I can not.. I am trying to tell my friend who is running the game that I need to relay on game resources because I can not describe in detail what to do because I don't know (but my character either does or at least may)

I can't tell you how Kari casts Detect Magic, just that her character can. I can't tell you how Paul takes a d4 knife and does +5d6 damage when the great sword only does 2d6, but his character know how.
I don't know how to search or look or perceive actively for danger, but my character grew up doing so...I didn't so I asking to do something my character can do that I can not and cannot describe. My character thinks there is danger, and wants to check...how does he do that? How do I communicate to you my friend across the table that my character has a skill i do not possess in real life but wish to take advantage of.