That level-up math forcing to stuff XP into certain page counts to get to X Level by Y Page is a terrible disservice to the game. If you're running an AP, you should just use Milestone XP, have more meaningful encounters.
Agreed. But since the APs are the "store windows" of the system so to speak, they have to do it the official way.
Both AOA and Extinction Curse also front-loads the levels, so you have parts 1 and 2 be 4-level parts. Since the initial part also likey has some setup to do, that leaves even fewer pages, so stronger/tighter encounters it is.
In Strength of Thousands, I believe they have more encounters that are solvable via roleplaying, and a greater proportion of story XP. That leaves more room to breathe. In addition, I think the 4-level parts are pushed toward the middle, again giving more room in the early part.
a silly aside.
in like 44pt font at the back of the CRB, right at the top says:
"Advance your Game"
a bit of a play, easily missed, but absolutely a subtle "this right here is your AD&D to 5e's B/X" without, you know, any risk of lawyers writing letters.
Honestly, D&D style experience is kind of archaic these days anyway. Even games that still use experience rather than Milestones don't usually go that route.
Yeah. I prefer the Free League style of asking questions of the player ("Did you do x? get an XP point.") and then spending those XP points for immediate upgrades. Or Call of Cthulhu - check the skills you used and then fail a check with them to show you can improve.
Anything but meaningless minute numbers that range in the thousands.
They could've, you know, just created a levelling method for their new system that reflects the way people play their games (and other contemporary games).
Or leaned into it more in the APs as an "official AP Leveling System." The Milestones are already there in the books - they just don't have to stuff their APs with a bunch of meaningless encounters when the combats are so darned difficult for the party.
Or - if they're set on using traditional XP systems - provide plenty of options for story XP and other options.
Yeah. I prefer the Free League style of asking questions of the player ("Did you do x? get an XP point.") and then spending those XP points for immediate upgrades. Or Call of Cthulhu - check the skills you used and then fail a check with them to show you can improve.
Anything but meaningless minute numbers that range in the thousands.
I came up too much with games that still used experience--because it often translated directly into improvement costs--but they didn't care much about how many things you fought or how tough they were, just on how well you succeeded at what you were doing (they also often had baked in some social engineering stuff I'm not a fan of these days, but that's neither here nor there).
They could've, you know, just created a levelling method for their new system that reflects the way people play their games (and other contemporary games).
Or leaned into it more in the APs as an "official AP Leveling System." The Milestones are already there in the books - they just don't have to stuff their APs with a bunch of meaningless encounters when the combats are so darned difficult for the party.
Or - if they're set on using traditional XP systems - provide plenty of options for story XP and other options.
I came up too much with games that still used experience--because it often translated directly into improvement costs--but they didn't care much about how many things you fought or how tough they were, just on how well you succeeded at what you were doing (they also often had baked in some social engineering stuff I'm not a fan of these days, but that's neither here nor there).
I suspect the latter would have gone over better with parts of the fanbase than the former. Some people are really hostile to Milestone advancement.
Like I've mentioned elsewhere, I started playing OD&D in 1975, and still prefer some experience system to Milestones generally (but that has as much to do with preferring games that are more piecemeal than leveled games or things like Cortex), but honestly, there's a reason even among games that use some kind of XP, basing it on "what you fought" is pretty thin on the ground once you get away from the D&D-sphere.
I see the point with traditional XP, particularly in a more sandboxy campaign where it's up to the PCs to go out and do stuff and choose their own challenges and rewards. But most adventure paths are pretty linear. You might as well directly say that "after the hermitage the PCs go up to level 4" instead of saying "by the time the PCs reach the tower they should be level 4. If they aren't quite there, throw in some 'random' encounters on the way there."
If you follow the default rate of progression (about four sessions per level) and give out XP for accomplishments at the prescribed rate, about half of your XP should come from accomplishments instead of combat. If Paizo is not structuring their PF2 adventures around that rate of progression, that’s a major miss.
If you follow the default rate of progression (about four sessions per level) and give out XP for accomplishments at the prescribed rate, about half of your XP should come from accomplishments instead of combat. If Paizo is not structuring their PF2 adventures around that rate of progression, that’s a major miss.
These are the specified accomplishment awards for The Show Must Go On, part 1 of Extinction Curse. Each chapter is supposed to be one level.
Chapter 1:
30-80 for the show, plus 30 per PC who put on a signature trick.
Up to 40 for fixing various show problems.
Total: Up to 240 XP (for 4 PCs)
Chapter 2:
Tracking mephit: 10 XP
Recognizing where the abrikandilu are from: 10 XP
Learning where demons came from: 30 XP
Performance duels: up to 60 XP
Rescuing farmers: 30 XP
Total: Up to 140 XP
Chapter 3:
Freeing mayor: 30 XP
Returning Abadaran books: 30 XP
Stopping blood wolf transformation: 10 XP
Saving Harlock: 30 XP
Total: Up to 100 XP
Chapter 4:
None.
In addition to these, there are a number of encounters with possibly nonviolent solutions where the adventure specifies that you get the same XP, but that's just common sense, and I see that as still being encounter XP.
These are the specified accomplishment awards for The Show Must Go On, part 1 of Extinction Curse. Each chapter is supposed to be one level.
Chapter 1:
30-80 for the show, plus 30 per PC who put on a signature trick.
Up to 40 for fixing various show problems.
Total: Up to 240 XP (for 4 PCs)
Chapter 2:
Tracking mephit: 10 XP
Recognizing where the abrikandilu are from: 10 XP
Learning where demons came from: 30 XP
Performance duels: up to 60 XP
Rescuing farmers: 30 XP
Total: Up to 140 XP
Chapter 3:
Freeing mayor: 30 XP
Returning Abadaran books: 30 XP
Stopping blood wolf transformation: 10 XP
Saving Harlock: 30 XP
Total: Up to 100 XP
Chapter 4:
None.
In addition to these, there are a number of encounters with possibly nonviolent solutions where the adventure specifies that you get the same XP, but that's just common sense, and I see that as still being encounter XP.
Thanks. Wow. That is a lot less than what the CRB suggests the GM should be handing out. I assume if you followed its advice anyway, the PCs would be well beyond the adventure’s expectations.
This is where I’m getting about half your XP from accomplishments.
If you don’t want to deal with managing and handing out XP, or if you want to have progression based solely on events in the story, you can ignore the XP process entirely and instead simply decide when the characters level up. Generally, the characters should gain a level every three to four game sessions, just after the most appropriate big event that happens during that time, such as defeating a significant villain or achieving a major goal.
As mentioned earlier, it’s up to you how much XP to give out for accomplishments. As a general guideline, in a given game session, you’ll typically give several minor awards, one or two moderate awards, and only one major award, if any.
If you do story-based leveling, the equivalent speed is three or four sessions per level. I assume this rate is meant to be equivalent to the rate of advancement with XP. If you give out accomplishments at the expected rate, that is around 60~170 XP per session from accomplishments (assuming three minor, one to two moderate, and a major every few sessions), or 135 XP on average. Over three to four sessions, that is 405~540 XP, or about half a level on average.
