D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[GMforPowergamers]

Yet a diviner wizard can cast fireball quite effectively.

I can not stress enough the spell list is 1/3 to 1/2 of the problem... if I were in charage I would cut it down to only a few combat options and all the SOD/SOS getting massively nerfed (no tasha or hold pre 3rd level spells)

 

[Undrave]

Since True Polymorph exists, it's hard to find something that a Wizard can't do, since they can always just become a creature that can do it, just need to know one below CR 21.

Right, when you hit 17+,between Wish and True Polymorph there is very little that's "not possible" for a wizard.

True Polymorph and Wish should just not be in the game. I don't care if they're class, get that nonsense out of here!

 

[Undrave]

I can not stress enough the spell list is 1/3 to 1/2 of the problem... if I were in charage I would cut it down to only a few combat options and all the SOD/SOS getting massively nerfed (no tasha or hold pre 3rd level spells)

I'd give the base class a spell list that gets smaller and smaller as they go in level, but compensate by curated spell list addition per subclass. A bit like a more dramatic Domain Spells system.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I want a 15+ rogue to be able to teleport between shadows and steal someone's luck/memories/identity. I want a character with high intimidate to scare people to death or high athletics to be able to throw a cow over a hut. Gimme a dragoon leap, where you jump 50 feet in the air and take down a flyer or skewer three guys on your lance. High level non-casters feel almost exactly the same as low level ones. The "wahoo" factor never gets bigger.

Again, not spells, because spell slots are not the whole of magic in the world. Monks have ki. Druids wildshape without spending a slot. The swarmkeeper ranger has magical bugs but they exist without slots. D&D is inherently a high magic game. Some of that needs to bleed over into the fighter's training by allowing them to greatly exceed what is possible in our world. You cannot have a low magic game with PC casters, and certainly not one with 5E's approach where there is magic in every single encounter, and likely every single round.

Do you really think that D&D will become what you want?

Why not?

As far as I can tell, it would only take adding 1 optional Mythic Martial class that gets increasingly mythic abilties from level 11+. Set the parameters as -- this class can be no more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard. Don't hamstring the design with limits like no limited use abilties, no narrative control abilties, etc. Some of ehren's suggestions seem really mythic but 4e (the supposed cool ability eliminating edition) actually dabled with some of these abilties as part of Epic Destinies --- there was one where you could walk to any location on any plane in 24hrs, finding otherwise unknown portals and paths in needed. there was one that let you steal intangible things -- souls, memories, etc.

Keep (or improve) the existing mundane / half caster Figher for those that want that asthetic.

Done.

I mean, I'd also be for reigning in casters as the primary solution but all these discussions are sort of assuming that boat has sailed. People seem to equate D&D = super hero Dr. Strange like high level Wizards. And D&D wouldn't be D&D without them. If that's true then give us the martial equivalent as an option. If we are willing to bring Wizards down then this is a different discussion.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I can not stress enough the spell list is 1/3 to 1/2 of the problem... if I were in charage I would cut it down to only a few combat options and all the SOD/SOS getting massively nerfed (no tasha or hold pre 3rd level spells)

I would say it goes deeper than that, to design conceits that stretch back to at least 3e, arguably even earlier.

The wizard is designed as a generalist that can also easily become good at a variety of things. Want good AoE? Grab Fireball. Want to scout? Find Familiar. Control? Web or Hypnotic Pattern.

While the wizard certainly can't have every possible situation covered, at 2 spells per level (1 prepped), after a few levels you have a pretty good variety at your disposal each day. And with a little forewarning, you can change up as necessary.

The fighter is also ostensibly designed as a generalist. However, they're constantly pushed to specialize. Fighting Style. Archetype. Feats. Sure, you COULD pick a variety to be middling good at a broad range of situations, but it's just not that good of an option when compared to the fighter who is great at one thing (like pole arms, or bows). Moreover, the specializations aren't all that different. It's mostly just different flavors of "I hit it". Essentially, the fighter is a "generalist" who can become good at one thing (and a fairly narrow thing at that). Their own particular flavor of "I hit it".

 

[Fanaelialae]

Why not?

As far as I can tell, it would only take adding 1 optional Mythic Martial class that gets increasingly mythic abilties from level 11+. Set the parameters as -- this class can be no more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard. Don't hamstring the design with limits like no limited use abilties, no narrative control abilties, etc. Some of ehren's suggestions seem really mythic but 4e (the supposed cool ability eliminating edition) actually dabled with some of these abilties as part of Epic Destinies --- there was one where you could walk to any location on any plane in 24hrs, finding otherwise unknown portals and paths in needed. there was one that let you steal intangible things -- souls, memories, etc.

Keep (or improve) the existing mundane / half caster Figher for those that want that asthetic.

Done.

I mean, I'd also be for reigning in casters as the primary solution but all these discussions are sort of assuming that boat has sailed. People seem to equate D&D = super hero Dr. Strange like high level Wizards. And D&D wouldn't be D&D without them. If that's true then give us the martial equivalent as an option. If we are willing to bring Wizards down then this is a different discussion.

I don't know if you were around when the Book of Nine Swords (3.5e) came out, but it was very similar to what you describe. The folks who like mundane fighters were not happy... which is a very mild and conservative description of their actual response.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I can not stress enough the spell list is 1/3 to 1/2 of the problem... if I were in charage I would cut it down to only a few combat options and all the SOD/SOS getting massively nerfed (no tasha or hold pre 3rd level spells)

Yeah, a lot of the problem is breadth. Giving someone reliable, no cost magic that can fill all the roles D&D Wizards can fill is just not a recognizable fantasy archtype. It's a Supers thing ala Dr. Strange.

Even if Wizards had similarly powerful spells imagine if you had to pick between:

Combat --- only decent damage spells OR controlling spells like walls
Out of Combat -- only ONE of the following -- movement, divination, social manipulation, enviromental protection, etc.

I don't think anyone would care if the Wizard can contribute decently to a fight and their only non combat ulility was teleport/dimension door/jump etc. Despite the fact that at high levels they still get pretty mythic abilities. Still a pretty good situation compared to the current Fighter but perhaps leaves enough space for others to step up in social situation, overland travel when needed, etc.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't know if you were around when the Book of Nine Swords (3.5e) came out, but it was very similar to what you describe. The folks who like mundane fighters were not happy... which is a very mild and conservative description of their actual response.

Indeed. Some people derisively called it "The Big Book of Weaboo Fightin' Magic". It was too "anime" for some people to handle. And also, it took the 3.5 era Fighter debates and lit them on fire. To a lesser extent the Monk debates, thanks to the Swordsage variant.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I don't know if you were around when the Book of Nine Swords (3.5e) came out, but it was very similar to what you describe. The folks who like mundane fighters were not happy... which is a very mild and conservative description of their actual response.

I was and love Bo9s as a start to this. As far as I remember, all the responses boiled down to -- I don't like this so no one should have it.

Didn't think it was a good reason then and don't now. The hope is that with all the new players now, we might see a broadening of options.

 

[Mort]

Indeed. Some people derisively called it "The Big Book of Weaboo Fightin' Magic". It was too "anime" for some people to handle. And also, it took the 3.5 era Fighter debates and lit them on fire. To a lesser extent the Monk debates, thanks to the Swordsage variant.

I always thought that was sad. It's not like the regular fighter/monk went away for those that wanted only that for their campaigns.