D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

[Fanaelialae]

There are many solutions. My favorite is the Level Up fighter. But many people seem to want WotC to do it instead, and that seems unlikely, to me anyway.

Which goes to show that it is indeed possible.

Level Up has some great design work. However, I feel like too much of it is complexity for the sake of complexity. Given that Level Up is intended to be the complex 5e variant, they nailed the intended design. However, it simply isn't exactly what I'm looking for.

An improved revised-5e fighter doesn't seem impossible to me. They've already been taking baby steps towards adding more utility to the fighter in their publications. I think the designers are aware that it's one of 5e's weak points. Obviously, I can't see the future, but I'm at least a little hopeful.

 

[Flamestrike]

@Maxperson, @UngainlyTitan, @Fanaelialae, @Micah Sweet, @Flamestrike, @FrozenNorth, etal.

Can a compromise be helpful? I am probably ok with:

• A week of Downtime automatically counts as a long rest.
• During an adventure, all rests are short rests.
• Twice before the next level, a player can change one short rest into a long rest.

Mate however you want to run it works for me, if it works at your table.

My only point is that this is the balance point, and that it's up to the DM to enforce it, and DMs that dont, and encounter balance issues, only have themselves to blame.

There is a seperate argument that the balance point should have been set elsewhere other than 6 or so encounters and 2 or so short rests, but that's a different argument alltogether.

There are still people in this very thread that refuse to do anything about enforcing it (notably they're the exact same people complaining that Fighters suck and Wizards rule), and still a few that refuse to acknowledge it even exists.

It does exist, its up to the DM to enforce it (however he chooses to go about that), and that's just the truth of the matter.

 

[Maxperson]

Edit: re-read the post chain. I would re iterate that if people are resting after every encounter, then a chat with all concerned is in order as to what kind of game we are playing. I would do this because there is a very good chance of a mismatch of expectations at work here.

The post chain dealt with the position that the 5MWD was fine. If you are talking to the players to stop the 5MWD, then how is it not a problem? Resting after every fight IS the 5MWD.

 

[Fanaelialae]

@Maxperson, @UngainlyTitan, @Fanaelialae, @Micah Sweet, @Flamestrike, @FrozenNorth, etal.

Can a compromise be helpful? I am probably ok with:

• A Downtime of at least a week of rest automatically counts as a long rest.
• During an adventure, all rests are short rests.
• Twice before the next level, a player can change one short rest into a long rest.

This ability to switch a short rest satisfies my need for narrative flexibility to be able to tell different kinds of adventure stories, when combats happen at different frequencies, whether covert ops surprise-attacking room to room or pirates sailing the open seas.

When characters end an adventure and go into Downtime, they automatically refresh: even if they used up their long rests and havent leveled up yet. A minimum of a week of rest defines a Downtime, to ensure the flavor that the players are definitely not adventuring. (Also, a brief google found that eight days is the average amount of ideal vacationing for the purpose of relaxing from work. So about a week Monday to Monday off, makes sense.)

There are still ambiguous corner cases. In my campaigns, players normally do social encounters during Downtime, relevant to the various ambitions they are working toward. So it is possible to level up during Downtime. This shouldnt be a problem.

More awkwardly, a seafaring campaign might sailing for months. Encounters might be weeks apart. So whether a sailor on a vessel is in an adventure or in a Downtime is ambiguous. Maybe, if the player hasnt seen combat action for a week, the journey can count starting as a downtime? Then the second week is a week of Downtime that automatically counts as a longrest? Like I said, awkward.

Anyway, the extensive timeframe of journeys can be handled separately. The point is, a Downtime automatically refreshes regardless of leveling. Meanwhile, adventures have to long rests per level and the player decides when these two happen.

Yeah, I'd be perfectly willing to play in a campaign with a resting rule like this one.

 

[Flamestrike]

No because six to eight encounters is an unworkable bonkers target to begin with

Use the Gritty rest variant. Then you only need 6-8 encounters between whole weeks of downtime in a safe space, not broken up by any combat at all.

Adventuring 'days' last literally 'months' with that variant.

If you have a problem with the encounter frequency they based it off, find a variant rest rule that works to maintain it, or choose a different system. It's an inherent part of 5E and we're stuck with it.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The thing is, I don't think that you need to empower the fighter to match the wizard. That seems to be what everyone in these conversations thinks is the only option when I bring this up. But that's basically making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I mean, couldn't there maybe be a compromise out there? Some reasonable improvement to the fighter that doesn't unleash a tide of wrath and indignation?

I have no objection to boosting the non-caster classes.

 

[Flamestrike]

Also, keep in mind, it's 6-8 hard encounters.

You can easily do less if you throw in a bunch of deadly ones. Especially as "deadly" in encounter design doesn't actually mean deadly - it means the party will likely have to throw roughly 25%+ of their combat resources at it or risk someone going down.

Of course, go a little too hard and you risk tipping the encounter into likely TPK territory. But, I've found that's not as huge an issue as I initially feared. Especially if proper escape opportunities are provided.

Mort you've played through one of my high level adventures where I stuck loosely to the 6 or so encounter/ 2 short rest paradigm.

What were your observations re class balance?

 

[Flamestrike]

I have no objection to boosting the non-caster classes.

Give them more short rests per long rest.

Thats all you need to do. Up the ratio of short rests to long rests.

Make them 5 minutes long (and handwaved), but limited to 3 per long rest.

 

[Maxperson]

ok, leaving aside the fact that I have never seen a 5mwd (nor in 3.x when this thing first reared its head) but this is not universal. It clearly does not happen at every table and to a that extent it is a choice of the players at that table. So, the players want it, they are the ones choosing to rest after all. What difference does it make to the DM?

The 5MWD is as old as D&D. It just wasn't using that term back then. Use up all your resources and rest so the wizard and cleric could get spells back was very common back in the day.

 

[tetrasodium]

Use the Gritty rest variant. Then you only need 6-8 encounters between whole weeks of downtime in a safe space, not broken up by any combat at all.

Adventuring 'days' last literally 'months' with that variant.

If you have a problem with the encounter frequency they based it off, find a variant rest rule that works to maintain it, or choose a different system. It's an inherent part of 5E and we're stuck with it.

I'm sure that it's been discussed already but the not at all "gritty" gritty rest variant introduces it's own set of problems that the gm is left to fix.. If it were as simple as people not seeing it often suggest that fixing it is then we wouldn't be seeing these discussions eight years in.