D&D 5E Discussing Worldbuilding: Why Don't The Mages Take Over The World?

[MGibster]

That is beauty of D&D! It is customizable.

To a degree. At the end of the day, it's still D&D with pretty much all the baggage that comes with that. Which is good because sometimes I'm just in the mood for D&D.

 

[bloodtide]

How many years does it take to become a practicing Wizard? To go from "I literally only know how to read and write" to "I'm a 5th level Wizard," given that's your stated target. Keep in mind, we're talking about people who aren't adventurers, so they aren't delving into murder-holes and sparring with bus-sized lizards with superiority complexes and epic halitosis.

How long does it take?

There is no offical answer in any edition. Sure, there is a lot of "fluff" talk about becoming a wizard takes a long time. You can see examples all over the place, wizards that are 50+ but only 7th level, but others that are under 30 and 24th level.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Well wizarding requires opportunity. Your starting spellbook costs a lot of money, so either you have rich parents, have noticeable talent (most likely taking the form of a big brain), or a teacher who decides to train you for other reasons.

So while a lot of people could probably manage to learn cantrips, the opportunity to learn has a few hurdles before they can become widespread. I imagine it's more likely in major centers of population, and countries with higher standards of education.

Exactly! Wizarding requires opportunity, but also opens up more opportunity than not having magic does. You get an economic advantage. It's like how it costs more money to become a doctor than a carpenter, but doctors (typically) get paid more in the long run.

You might need to dedicate most of your life to become a super powerful wizard, but you don't need to be a super powerful wizard to make a lot of money. You just need enough to cast some spells that will help you make the money you devoted to learning wizardry back and more.

Just like rich families produce more doctors, because they have the economic opportunity to fund medical school.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Some people can become wizards relatively easily. This doesn't mean that anyone could! My answer to how long it will take to become a fifth level wizard, is that it is similar to how long it will take to become a doctor of quantum physics. It is not something that everyone can do at all.

Exactly. It's like reasoning that because Balamurali Ambati became a medical doctor at the age of 17, that therefore practicing medicine is effortless. At 17, most kids haven't even graduated high school yet, so clearly it's something that anyone can do, without so much as a high school diploma.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

To a degree. At the end of the day, it's still D&D with pretty much all the baggage that comes with that. Which is good because sometimes I'm just in the mood for D&D.

Ironically in my campaign world, clerics hold sway…but not total. There are many places where this is not true…

 

[Chaosmancer]

Oh, you mistake me.

It's not that they can't woo the populace or roast an opponent. It's that a 5th level wizard is very fragile and easily stab-able. Yeah, they have their supporters, but so does everyone else.

If we are going to talk about the inevitability of magocracies, theocracies, whatever, we need to talk 12th level or so. If we're positing that everyone wants power, for good or ill, you have to take into account assassination. 5th level, for anybody, wizard or no, doesn't give you a lock on the throne.

They are far less stabbable than most. 5th level wizard is going to have 22 hp. A standard noble according to the MM has.... 9 hp. So the wizard is already rocking double the hp of most nobles in the game.

Now, sure, it could be that we should assume the king is a fighter, but a 5th level fighter is looking at only 34 hp. But, um, Assassins are frickin' scary. The assassin can dish out, with surprise and no poison, dish out 42 damage. Feel free to add another 48 damage for the poison. By this point being a wizard or a fighter doesn't matter right?

Except the wizard is armored, and the fighter isn't (Mage Armor). The wizard is awake, and the fighter isn't (alarm spell), the wizard can cast shield, because they are awake, the fighter can't. The Wizard isn't getting auto-critted or hit with sneak attack because they aren't surprised, reducing the damage to 12 normally and 48 from poison. The Wizard can cast spells to increase their defenses still more or escape, or capture the assassin, the fighter can't.

Really weird to say the fighter is less stabbable, when they seem far more vulnerable to the assassin.

Oh, and the spellcaster doesn't have to be a wizard, giving us clerics or warlocks or bards, all of which can be more heavily armored and have more hp. Or be a paladin, and have the same hp, armor and weapons AND magic.


And finally, if we SOMEHOW must have the character be 12th level to be allowed to rule a nation, then the spellcaster is at an even bigger advantage, because it is no more difficult to level as a caster than it is as a fighter, and magic will be even more powerful by that point.

Everyone can be assassinated. Those with access to magic are LESS likely to be assassinated, because magic offers solutions to those problems.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is why we need Science and Alchemy.

Some fertilizer, fluoride and a few Poly-Sci majors go a long way.

So, artificers? Another type of magic user.

Or, maybe we do all that without magic... which means the magic-user also has access to that. And also access to the spells. Getting even greater gains.

 

[Oofta]

They are far less stabbable than most. 5th level wizard is going to have 22 hp. A standard noble according to the MM has.... 9 hp. So the wizard is already rocking double the hp of most nobles in the game.

Now, sure, it could be that we should assume the king is a fighter, but a 5th level fighter is looking at only 34 hp. But, um, Assassins are frickin' scary. The assassin can dish out, with surprise and no poison, dish out 42 damage. Feel free to add another 48 damage for the poison. By this point being a wizard or a fighter doesn't matter right?

Except the wizard is armored, and the fighter isn't (Mage Armor). The wizard is awake, and the fighter isn't (alarm spell), the wizard can cast shield, because they are awake, the fighter can't. The Wizard isn't getting auto-critted or hit with sneak attack because they aren't surprised, reducing the damage to 12 normally and 48 from poison. The Wizard can cast spells to increase their defenses still more or escape, or capture the assassin, the fighter can't.

Really weird to say the fighter is less stabbable, when they seem far more vulnerable to the assassin.

Oh, and the spellcaster doesn't have to be a wizard, giving us clerics or warlocks or bards, all of which can be more heavily armored and have more hp. Or be a paladin, and have the same hp, armor and weapons AND magic.


And finally, if we SOMEHOW must have the character be 12th level to be allowed to rule a nation, then the spellcaster is at an even bigger advantage, because it is no more difficult to level as a caster than it is as a fighter, and magic will be even more powerful by that point.

Everyone can be assassinated. Those with access to magic are LESS likely to be assassinated, because magic offers solutions to those problems.

You're assuming that the noble has no class levels. More than that, you're assuming they have no security. Leaders throughout history have been a sharp pointy object away from death since we've had leaders. They didn't survive because they personally were fighting off ninja assassins nightly.

Personal capabilities of self defense mean basically nothing in the overwhelmingly majority of cases. Personal power when compared to the strength of a kingdom is irrelevant. Besides if you have that many high level wizards running around it means you have at least as many high level assassins.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Some times they do, large parts of FR history has Faerun dominated by Wizard ruled empires.

Or in other cases clerics or even Gods.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Sure. You're putting a lot of faith in 1st level spells.