D&D 5E When lore and PC options collide…

[Voadam]

I played in a 4e darksun game back when... and we were the DM described the caravan every single time as horses and wagons... It made me a little miffed, I noticed it. In-between games I sent a pic of teh big stone beasts of caravans to the DM... the next session he continued with horses and wagons... and I just said 'okay his DS is different then mine' and kept going.

I played in a spelljammer game where we went to Krynn, and came across Lolth drow doing an extraplanar underdark invasion.

It was fine for me. I can see it ruining a Dragonlance feel for some.

 

[Aldarc]

If Brienne of Tarth isn't a (non-religious) Paladin, what is she?

A knight. The basic vocabulary is already there.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah. I'd agree. That's creativity in this context. That's exactly what I don't see from any of my new to D&D with 5E players. I've been running 5E since the playtest.

I was in the playtest, but we held on to 4e just a bit into 5e including running both for 2 different campaigns but close enough to the same for me.

Mostly the players just line up and swing until the other side dies, finding and pressing buttons on their character sheet over and over. Give them interesting magic items with odd powers, they go unused or get sold or traded.

I have not found that... most kids (teens and preteens maybe even early 20's) normally want to do something weird out the gate I need to figure out how to do... older player (especially those from TSR editions) I have found are more likely to figure 1 'optimal' action and just try to spam it.

Give them dynamic fights with interesting terrain and obstacles, they ignore the terrain, line up, and button smash.

this one I am 50 50 on... I have had MANY fights that I figured my set up was full of cool things and no one used them... but also plenty of times I give a 2 sentence description we roll initiative and a player will hit me with "Hey are there any ____ near me" and CREATE there own interesting terrain.

Give them timers and deadlines, they ignore them and let the NPCs do whatever so the PCs don't ever have to enter a fight with anything less than 100% full resources.

yeah me and my group are not big on timer/deadlines... if it comes up once or twice we will roll with it but after that we normally are like "It can wait"

With my old school players it's night and day. They don't need any encouragement, they just go nuts. Which I love. I have tried mixed groups to show the newer players the shenanigans you can get up to with D&D, but nope. Line up, smash. Line up, smash.

I don't get it... have you tried using the strixhaven rules? they have some great 'relationship' rules I find new players like to putz with.

 

[Oofta]

So I put these two quotes here side by side because they kind of implky a chicken or egg type situation.

How can you have creative players when all they can contribute is 1% because you're controlling the other 99%?

If you want creative players, you have to allow them to be creative.



Right. And the GM can create another setting.

But that's beside the point. My point is I care more about the people I play with than the make believe stuff.



Yes, of course.

I'll have to let my players know they can't be creative because I'm such a control freak that doesn't want a kitchen sink for my home campaign.

How much difference does race really make anyway? Every race is just a mirror of our own with a few extra bits and bobs tacked on while applying a mask. Creativity doesn't come from a rule that says you can walk across difficult terrain because you're a water genasi, it comes from the motivations of the PCs, the backgrounds we've created together and what they do in game.

Some of my players are quite creative. Some just want to join in the fun and roll some dice. I always encourage creativity, but yes you have to live within constraints. It might be cool to a player if their PC could shoot laser beams from their eyes and if they want to fluff their sorcerer's scorching ray like that, cool. But you still have to use that spell slot and it's still going to follow the rules of the scorching ray spell.

There will always be limits to what a PC can do unless you're just playing "let's narrate an adventure". Allowing any race or character doesn't change that.

 

[Lanefan]

This right here is the disconnect.

The DM doesn't have to run a kitchen sink. They can simply allow just this one deviation and not make a big deal about it.

They don't need to make new lore, just accept this one thing is weird. Like all PCs.

Except that "one deviation" can in the right (or wrong!) circumstances become the thin end of a wedge, leading not just to the kitchen sink but to the campaign going down its drain.

The best way to avoid going down a slippery slope is to refuse to stand near the top of it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Except that "one deviation" can in the right (or wrong!) circumstances become the thin end of a wedge, leading not just to the kitchen sink but to the campaign going down its drain.

The best way to avoid going down a slippery slope is to refuse to stand near the top of it.

this may be what finally ends this... this is what I have been asking for, please walk us through step by step how having orcs in krynn ruined it... what is the slope? how does the wedge work? This is what I have been asking for.

 

[Lanefan]

A knight. The basic vocabulary is already there.

So, a Cavalier then. Could be, but I still see her as a non-religious Paladin.

She's certainly close enough to justify Paladins existing in the setting, which was the original point.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If Brienne of Tarth isn't a (non-religious) Paladin, what is she?

What Paladin abilities does she have?

 

[Lanefan]

this may be what finally ends this... this is what I have been asking for, please walk us through step by step how having orcs in krynn ruined it...

That's going to be a bit difficult for me, in that a) I haven't looked at anything Dragonlance in about 30 years and b) I've no real idea what they're trying to do with it now.

what is the slope? how does the wedge work? This is what I have been asking for.

But this, in a different context, I can answer easily.

It's all about precedent and fairness. What's available to one player must be available to all.

Say for example that I-as-DM only want the core seven* species as PCs in my game, and make this clear up front to the players. Then a player comes to me with some interesting ideas for a Dragonborn he wants to run, and talks me into letting it happen. The thin end of the wedge is in, and now I'm on that slippery slope, because next time a player wants to bring in a new PC I have to allow Dragonborn as an option because I've already set that precedent with the other guy. Lather rinse repeat with various other species and suddenly I'm running a monsters campaign I never wanted to run.

Now I could (and do) gate such unusual species behind very difficult dice rolls in order to keep them rare and avoid the existence of one setting a precedent allowing a lot more, but whenever I mention that idea elsewhere in here I get flayed for it.

* - Human, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Hobbit, Part-Elf, Part-Orc.

 

[Lanefan]

What Paladin abilities does she have?

Attitude and outlook, mostly. But in that setting it wouldn't be much of a stretch to give her a few Paladin-like abilities e.g. detection of enemies, maybe some occasional minor healing, and so on.