D&D General Younger Players Telling Us how Old School Gamers Played

[GMforPowergamers]

If people are worried he got something wrong, a much more productive approach is to write a blog post or put up a youtube video that is a response (I would just recommend being polite about it).

i would watch a polite rebuttal

 

[Charlaquin]

That's not what's happening. He found a rule, claimed that none of us back then were even aware of it, then claims that that rule explains how old school gaming was done (when it wasn't).

I don’t think he’s making the claims you think he’s making. Yeah, obviously there were people who were aware of the rule. Obviously there were also people who weren’t aware of it. Obviously there were groups who followed it, and groups who ignored it. People always have played and always will play the game in all sorts of different ways. But without a doubt, the rule in question got dropped in later editions, and new players today are mostly unaware of it. There’s a lot about old-school play that can be revelatory to new players, because a lot of them assume the game has always been fundamentally the same, with the rules being gradually refined over time. Discovering rules like this changes the way newer players conceive of the game’s history, making them realize that the way (some) people used to play is very different than the way they do now.

Several of us who were back then have tried explaining this many times in this thread, and it appears as several people who weren't back then keep misrepresenting us and are trying to "youngsplain" to us, for lack of better term.

I wish that would stop.

It seems to me like people are talking past each other here. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that everyone who played old-school D&D played the same way.

 

[Bedrockgames]

i would watch a polite rebuttal

I love seeing a polite disagreement playout on YouTube. It's when people start insulting each other, I tend to not be as interested. But people are human. Some of my favorite channels, people get passionate and it sometimes veers into insults (thinking again of some of the music channels I like). I just tend to prefer those channels when they are engaging the other person more openly and in a friendly way.

 

[Charlaquin]

So, FWIW, that section (Time, LBB3 pp. 35-36) is not about keeping track of time in general. It's specific to a type of campaign where you have multiple groups, and trying to coordinate them. See also LBB1 at 5, explaining that a ratio of 20 players to each referee is recommended.

Yes. This is the type of play he’s talking about “how they played” because it’s likely something that had never even crossed his mind. But he isn’t actually claiming that this is how everyone used to play D&D. He’s really just amazed by the discovery that this is how anyone used to play D&D, and sharing that discovery with his audience of other people who probably never even conceived of play like this being a possibility.

This error is similar to someone reading the LBBs today and assuming that everyone played OD&D using Chainmail for all combat (see. e.g., LBB3 at 31).

Again, I don’t think he’s claiming everyone did this. The idea that anyone did is pretty revelatory for people who have only ever been exposed to D&D being played with regular groups of 4-6 meeting weekly to play an ongoing story starring a consistent cast of characters.

I can't even. That video is beyond stupid, first for trying to tell us that this guy discovered a rule no one knew about (um ... nope) and then telling us how games back then were played (yeah ... not so much).

When the claim you think he’s making is obviously impossible (how could everyone have played this way if no one knew it was a rule?) I think it may be a good idea to consider that you’ve misinterpreted his claim, rather than that he’s just an idiot.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don’t think he’s making the claims you think he’s making. Yeah, obviously there were people who were aware of the rule. Obviously there were also people who weren’t aware of it. Obviously there were groups who followed it, and groups who ignored it. People always have played and always will play the game in all sorts of different ways. But without a doubt, the rule in question got dropped in later editions, and new players today are mostly unaware of it.

cf.

It seems to me like people are talking past each other here. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that everyone who played old-school D&D played the same way.

That's the issue. It's not a monolith, yet to start with this person is treating this as a "rule," (it's not) and doesn't seem to fully understand how OD&D worked. So it's not a question of people ignoring it or not ignoring it- he doesn't even fully try to understand the context of what he read.

The next thing is that this isn't hidden or constrained to OD&D. Look at the 1e DMG (all together- NO ONE READS THE DMG!). This "rule" is, unsurprisingly, in the AD&D DMG because AD&D is just OD&D with a lot more words.

Pages 37-38. On page 37, Gygax reiterates that "it is best to use 1 actual day = 1 game day when no play is happening." The entire section is an elaboration on what was already provided for in OD&D.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When the claim you think he’s making is obviously impossible (how could everyone have played this way if no one knew it was a rule?) I think it may be a good idea to consider that you’ve misinterpreted his claim, rather than that he’s just an idiot.

Conversely, I think it may be a good idea that maybe you should spend less time lecturing me, and more time considering I might know a little more about these rules than the guy who just discovered this on youtube.

But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's the issue. It's not a monolith, yet to start with this person is treating this as a "rule," (it's not) and doesn't seem to fully understand how OD&D worked. So it's not a question of people ignoring it or not ignoring it- he doesn't even fully try to understand the context of what he read.

funny because I feel the people taking offense are understanding the context of his video

The next thing is that this isn't hidden or constrained to OD&D. Look at the 1e DMG (all together- NO ONE READS THE DMG!). This "rule" is, unsurprisingly, in the AD&D DMG because AD&D is just OD&D with a lot more words.

Pages 37-38. On page 37, Gygax reiterates that "it is best to use 1 actual day = 1 game day when no play is happening." The entire section is an elaboration on what was already provided for in OD&D.

and again the idea that Gygax (who I less and less like) did and suggested this is the point... the fact that later games kept other parts even when changing this was part...

did you see the part about the cooking meat with cutting the edges off?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Conversely, I think it may be a good idea that maybe you should spend less time lecturing me, and more time considering I might know a little more about these rules than the guy who just discovered this on youtube.

But maybe I'm wrong.

If you were not going out of your way to read the worst interpretation of his video we might give you more of a chance.

 

[Charlaquin]

Conversely, I think it may be a good idea that maybe you should spend less time lecturing me, and more time considering I might know a little more about these rules than the guy who just discovered this on youtube.

But maybe I'm wrong.

My dude, I am not lecturing you, and I am quite certain you know a lot more about these rules than this guy does. You seem disproportionately defensive about being told how these rules work, when I don’t think anyone is trying to do that, at all.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

If you were not going out of your way to read the worst interpretation of his video we might give you more of a chance.

Well, that makes me sleep better! Good to know that you might be willing to give someone who actually knows the rules and the history and has repeatedly posted about the topic .... a chance ... so long as they don't disagree with a clickbait youtuber who just learned himself OD&D!

Thank you!!!!!

(And this is why Sacrosanct started the thread.)