D&D General Hot Take: D&D Has Not Recovered From 2E to 3.0 Transition

[Zardnaar]

I disagree. The monk has an excess of stun, and the monk isn't even considered a top tier class.

Casters, by comparison, are generally constrained by concentration regarding such effects.

Monk effect targets con iirc which is the worst save to target using a secondary stat for the DC.

Spellcasters can target wisdom and charisma saves using their primary caster stat.

Change monk stun to wisdom save key the DC off dexterity. Bet that makes a big difference. Changes the number by 4-5 or more.

And stuns a weaker effect than paralyzed iirc.

 

[Dausuul]

according to wotc (and I don't care if you believe them or not) 3e out sold 2e, 3.5 out sold 3e. 4e outsold 3.5, and 5e out sold 4e by such an order of magnitude it isn't even funny... now maybe 1e outsold 2e (I don't know) but 3e didn't out sell 4e and 4e didn't out sell 5e.

WotC has never told us whether 4E or 3E had higher lifetime sales.

Early on, they announced with great fanfare that 4E's first year had outsold 3E's first year (or maybe six months, I don't recall the exact time period). They were trumpeting what, at the time, they took to be 4E's successful debut.

Later in 4E's run, they got real quiet about sales figures.

 

[Scribe]

Galaxy brained take: All of this edition nonsense is just a way we use to mark time while avoiding the emptiness of our lives and waiting for the eventual heat-death of the universe.

Why hit us with the truth, this fine Wednesday?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

okay so I like the idea of bounded accuracy...

for the record a 4e style game with bounded accuracy and lower hp spread over levels is the D&D I currently wish for...

Spoiler: my idea (broad strokes)

keep prof but add 1/2 prof to saves your are not prof in or maybe half prof -1... (work in progress) have half prof go to AC as a skill bonus but some classes (say fighter) get the full prof. grant a +1 to all stats at level 10 or 11.
take the 2e hps and spread them out, but keep the 5e idea of HD
you start at 1st level with 3HD 1 or 2 maxed (based on DM level of lethality) you get additional HD only at odd levels at even levels you get a set +1/+2/+3 so even a 20th level fighter only has 12d10+30hp... and no con mod (but keep con mod to HD rolled for healing) then do what 4e did with HS for HD and base healing on hit dice... healing word is spend a HD and add clerics wis mod, cure wounds is heal AS IF you spent a HD...
Less HP and smaller numbers all around.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Y'all wanted classes to be SAD.

I mean I ALSO want you to have your choice of stat... so I can make a fighter that attacks with wisdom, or a rogue that attacks with chaarisma,

 

[GMforPowergamers]

i fell for the trap

 

[Zardnaar]

WotC has never told us whether 4E or 3E had higher lifetime sales.

Early on, they announced with great fanfare that 4E's first year had outsold 3E's first year (or maybe six months, I don't recall the exact time period). They were trumpeting what, at the time, they took to be 4E's successful debut.

Later in 4E's run, they got real quiet about sales figures.

Paizo never claimed Pathfinder oursold 4E overall either. The context of what they claimed was they outsold 4E in late 2010/early 2011 iirc.

We also have Tweet iirc on record referring to 4E as a disaster.

So yeah without sales figures and exact quotes as to who said what and when or even if they were telling porkies via a higher ups orders we won't know the exact picture.

Broadly speaking I don't think claiming 4E sold well on release is to controversial.

One problem they could have with 5E and one D&D is if 5E is still selling as well as posters assume they're replacing it while it's still popular. 3E and 5E didn't have that problem.

 

[payn]

I mean I ALSO want you to have your choice of stat... so I can make a fighter that attacks with wisdom, or a rogue that attacks with chaarisma,

I'd like that too, but that's not the way design has gone unfortunately. Honestly I think I'd rather see proficiency to saves go away and redo the maths. everybody MAD so your choices of your strengths and weaknesses are up to you.

 

[Zardnaar]

for the record a 4e style game with bounded accuracy and lower hp spread over levels is the D&D I currently wish for...

Spoiler: my idea (broad strokes)

keep prof but add 1/2 prof to saves your are not prof in or maybe half prof -1... (work in progress) have half prof go to AC as a skill bonus but some classes (say fighter) get the full prof. grant a +1 to all stats at level 10 or 11.
take the 2e hps and spread them out, but keep the 5e idea of HD
you start at 1st level with 3HD 1 or 2 maxed (based on DM level of lethality) you get additional HD only at odd levels at even levels you get a set +1/+2/+3 so even a 20th level fighter only has 12d10+30hp... and no con mod (but keep con mod to HD rolled for healing) then do what 4e did with HS for HD and base healing on hit dice... healing word is spend a HD and add clerics wis mod, cure wounds is heal AS IF you spent a HD...
Less HP and smaller numbers all around.

Not a bad idea. I was briefly using the 4E engine for my personal D&D after using it in Star Wars Saga Edition.

Except I was making a more B/X D&D with it adding in fixed microfeats.

 

[ECMO3]

I would disagree with the premise for a few reasons:

1. Spells were more powerful in 2E. If you failed a save against a save or suck you were typically out of the fight. Further the conditions were more deadly too. If several party members failed saves several would likely die. All failed a save it was typically a TPK. So while you may have needed a lower number to make the save the consequences of failure were worse.

2. There was no counterspell and no Paladin's aura and few condition immunities.

3. " DCs" were much higher at lower levels. A 1st level fighter needed to roll a 17 to save against hold person from a 3rd level priest and if he was paralyzed any enemy could kill him with one attack. A 1st level fighter hit by an Imp needed to make a 14 to save and if he failed he was dead, not downed but dead .... against an Imp. Sure at level 17 all he needed was a 3 to save against that Imp, however if he rolled a 2 again he died outright then and there. He could have 120hps and that one hit from an imp would kill him.