Almost every fantasy show is trying to be D&D or Game of Thrones

[MGibster]

For example, changing Ariel from white to black just seems weird....aka why are we doing this? Versus having some of the dwarves in middle earth be black, or having a black elf....that seems perfectly fine to me, they are new characters that aren't really established before, lets go!

Mermaids aren't real and Disney's Little Mermaid wasn't true to the source material anyway. So why get upset over Ariel's skin color?

 

[AnotherGuy]

Oh, there's another commonality at work here.

Nice, of course that's permitted.

 

[Celebrim]

I would very much disagree that it's the main beef.

Nothing good ever came out of not listening to people. The assumption that everyone is being dishonest with themselves and others, while its sometimes correct, is probably never justified.

The "main beef" with Rey is a lot of little things that add up to a very poorly written character. But as for the writing around making her heroic, one of the areas it's pretty easy to show that the writers treated a female character differently than a male character is that when Luke meets his mentors like Han and Obi Wan - older wiser figures that are supposed to guide him in his heroic journey - they put him in his place. And we the audience are made to understand that Luke needs to be put in his place, and that whatever his skills potential is, he's still a green and inexperienced kid in many ways. Luke gets flattened by sand people and needs rescuing. Luke gets flattened again by criminals in the cantina and again needs rescuing. Practically every time Luke opens his mouth Obi Wan is rolling his eyes and signaling to the audience (since Obi Wan has been shown as older and wiser) that Luke is being naive. And then we have the whole Han "Jumping through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops".

By contrast, when Rey is introduced to her mentors - Han (again) and Luke - she puts them in their place. She corrects and instructs them. Why? Presumably because the writers could not stand to have on screen a woman being corrected by a man about anything. However, this leads to absurdities like Rey showing up on the Millenium Falcon and correcting Han about his own ship.

Notice by contrast both Andor (in his own show, by Luthen) and Jyn Erso (in Rogue One, by K2S0) are put in their place earlier in various ways by more experienced mentors, without diminishing either character. In fact, Andor (in his own show) is allowed to be a bit of an idiot who, though hyper-competent in many ways, is still clearly learning his way through the world.

One of the many many problems with Rey as a character (which is just one of the many many problems with the sequels as movies) is that they vaguely seem to want to have a "golden trio" - the three friends working together to fix things. They seem to want to have an ensemble cast. But none of the characters actually have any sort of relationship with each other because the central character Rey doesn't need anyone. She's a much better character for a solo story, but the Star Wars feel typically is an ensemble cast. In the original trilogy, R2-D2 was the best tech, C3-P0 the best face man, Han the best rogue/shot, Luke the best pilot/swordsman, Leia the best leader/diplomat, etc. and everyone got to have their own moments to shine even if they were the comic relief. Compare this with JarJar Binks that is never really useful as a party member, or with Rey who doesn't need a party for anything because she's a better mechanic than Han, better warrior than everyone, better rogue than everyone, and so forth. It doesn't make for a good dynamic in the story.

It's not sexist to think that Rey is a badly written character, that Jyn Erso is less badly written, and that say that Ellen Ripley (of Alien and Aliens) or Sarah Connor (of T2: Judgement Day) are much better written characters. As soon as you start pulling, "You're just a SEXIST. You just can't handle strong women" for not liking Rey to someone that loves Ellen Ripley or Sarah Connor, you are the one that is a sexist.

 

[wicked cool]

The show is largely incoherent, but it occasionally makes nods to the fact that it takes place after the current day and that everything is cyclical.

That said, the art design is incredibly lazy. The nomadic people in the wagons apparently have irons and washing machines, since everything looks brand-new.

This doesn't appear to be a stance so much as everyone connected with the show other than Rosamund Pike appears to be completely incompetent.


I have no idea what "70's television" means in this sentence.

This is a bad take.

First off, if all of these female characters you like just happen to have appeared in stuff in your youth, rose-tinted glasses are a big part of what's happening to you, as it is to anyone.

Galadriel should be tougher than Legolas and they establish in the first episode of Rings of Power that she's been fighting orcs for centuries.

Rey is just as good at stuff as Luke is, but no one questions why he's able to fly a fighter jet, outfly professional pilots and be almost the lone survivor of a suicide mission. He's just a dude and associated with your childhood memories.

And I'm sorry it upsets you that white guys are dying before black dudes and women in movies. Imagine what if it was like that for you for decades. But it's hardly a consistent thing -- the first characters to die nowadays are a random grab bag, as they should be.

I didn’t say it upset me. However it “could “be leading to audiences not watching these shows.

The 6 million dollar man was built to be stronger faster etc. he was stronger than everyone else because he was built that way. Later they replicated it with 6 million dollar woman. They didn’t really have strong personality’s they were just strong and made for back then for 5 seasons

Luke had to earn it. He started off as a nothing and by return of Jedi he is strong. Good female example was Michelle cellar in Buffy. Doesn’t start off as super powerful. Has personality and is likeable
The difference also is sigouney weaver captures the screen. Daisey didn’t and neither does Galadriel compared to got characters. They have no emotion to them. Yes one is an elf but not really an excuse
Want a strong lead that is recent. Kelly Reilly on Yellowstone. Tremendous. Strong and believable and captures screen. More likely to win an acting award over Ridley and morfydd Clark

There’s no childhood rose colored glasses. New dr who stunk because the scripts were bad compared to scripts from say the Matt smith era and Tom baker era. They rewrote the history of the show to what appears to be an agenda and that probably hurt the show

2021 Arcane does a tremendous job of a female becoming super powered with great action etc. should be the model going forward for fantasy cartoons and not the exception
Attack on titan-strong female characters where you take the male lead and turn it on its head. Brilliant
Viola Davis in suicide squad-strong female actress that should hopefully be in the dc revamp

These shows have competition and are expensive which the six million dollar man didn’t have. The Witcher needs x amount of views otherwise it’s gone which happened to bebop, resident evil and dc , dr who to an extent (They are bringing back tenant to get the viewers back from a dumpster fire). You have producers/actors from she hulk and Obie one because fans don’t like what they are seeing. You have Star Wars movies in flux because fans didn’t respond well to what they were seeing. You have an actor say he’s leaving a show (Witcher) because of things he didn’t like. Disney lost a ton of money on streaming and it cost someone their job?
Resident evil movies. Strong female lead but these movies are pure garbage but they also made money
Not sure why we then have to respond with this is garbage truck backing up

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

By contrast, when Rey is introduced to her mentors - Han (again) and Luke - she puts them in their place. She corrects and instructs them. Why? Presumably because the writers could not stand to have on screen a woman being corrected by a man about anything.

ROFL.

Or, alternately, we've known Han Solo for decades, and we get to see the progress of time with him -- a character who is routinely shown to be wrong all the time from his very first appearance. It's part of his appeal: Half of the messes Han is in, he created, and the fun is watching him get himself out.

In contrast, Luke Skywalker was a blank page interacting with blank pages. Learning about how time progressed with these characters means nothing, since we don't know their starting point, and what hints we do get about Obi-Wan's past are immediately retconned in the next movie. (Darth Vader was not Luke's father when Star Wars was written.)

It's not sexist to think that Rey is a badly written character, that Jyn Erso is less badly written, and that say that Ellen Ripley (of Alien and Aliens) or Sarah Connor (of T2: Judgement Day) are much better written characters.

True. But when the only characters one is upset about all tend to be women or people of color, it's also fair to say that puts one in company with people who are sexist and racist and is cause for everyone else to be suspicious.

 

[Scribe]

True. But when the only characters one is upset about all tend to be women or people of color, it's also fair to say that puts one in company with people who are sexist and racist and is cause for everyone else to be suspicious.

Not a healthy set of assumptions to make though. I have no issues with Rey as character. I still think the 2nd of that set of films was an utter travesty.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There’s no childhood rose colored glasses.

Of course there are. Very few adults today would be excited about a GI Joe RPG if they had first watched the cartoon as an adult.

No one would be disappointed in Willow, the TV series, if they hadn't bonded with the truly terrible movie as a child. The movie was disappointing, the TV show is disappointing, the big differences are that what one imagined seeing in their childhood is hard to compete with (I refuse to go back and see just how bad The Black Hole is, for instance, having enjoyed it as a kid) and that coming to the TV show as an adult, things look more like they are.

Everyone does it. It's not an insult to say rose-colored glasses are involved. It's a brain thing, not a personal failing.

 

[Ryujin]

I didn’t say it upset me. However it “could “be leading to audiences not watching these shows.

The 6 million dollar man was built to be stronger faster etc. he was stronger than everyone else because he was built that way. Later they replicated it with 6 million dollar woman. They didn’t really have strong personality’s they were just strong and made for back then for 5 seasons

Luke had to earn it. He started off as a nothing and by return of Jedi he is strong. Good female example was Michelle cellar in Buffy. Doesn’t start off as super powerful. Has personality and is likeable
The difference also is sigouney weaver captures the screen. Daisey didn’t and neither does Galadriel compared to got characters. They have no emotion to them. Yes one is an elf but not really an excuse
Want a strong lead that is recent. Kelly Reilly on Yellowstone. Tremendous. Strong and believable and captures screen. More likely to win an acting award over Ridley and morfydd Clark

There’s no childhood rose colored glasses. New dr who stunk because the scripts were bad compared to scripts from say the Matt smith era and Tom baker era. They rewrote the history of the show to what appears to be an agenda and that probably hurt the show

2021 Arcane does a tremendous job of a female becoming super powered with great action etc. should be the model going forward for fantasy cartoons and not the exception
Attack on titan-strong female characters where you take the male lead and turn it on its head. Brilliant
Viola Davis in suicide squad-strong female actress that should hopefully be in the dc revamp

These shows have competition and are expensive which the six million dollar man didn’t have. The Witcher needs x amount of views otherwise it’s gone which happened to bebop, resident evil and dc , dr who to an extent (They are bringing back tenant to get the viewers back from a dumpster fire). You have producers/actors from she hulk and Obie one because fans don’t like what they are seeing. You have Star Wars movies in flux because fans didn’t respond well to what they were seeing. You have an actor say he’s leaving a show (Witcher) because of things he didn’t like. Disney lost a ton of money on streaming and it cost someone their job?
Resident evil movies. Strong female lead but these movies are pure garbage but they also made money
Not sure why we then have to respond with this is garbage truck backing up

Slight (unnecessary) correction. It's "The Bionic Woman." Her cost was never stated, except to say that it was more than that of Steve Austin's repair job, and was listed in the opening credits only as "classified." She was also stronger than Austin, having newer and improved components used in her repair.

 

[Alzrius]

True. But when the only characters one is upset about all tend to be women or people of color, it's also fair to say that puts one in company with people who are sexist and racist and is cause for everyone else to be suspicious.

I'd put forward that the protagonist(s) of a story, who necessarily carry the most weight in the narrative, (not incorrectly) receive the largest amount of scrutiny/criticism/feedback from the audience (notwithstanding things like cameos or guest spots). There was a great deal of criticism about Henry Cavill's Superman in his debut film, for instance, ranging from his killing Zod to his lack of a more idealistic/aspirational presentation.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not a healthy set of assumptions to make though.

The last decade suggests otherwise.