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Hello, I am lawyer with a PSA: almost everyone is wrong about the OGL and SRD. Clearing up confusion.

pemerton

Legend
I don't know if the phrase 'coming in front of' has a different meaning to lawyers then it does to us, but in my mind until the judge bangs his gavel and rules, there is A LOT WotC/Hasbro lawyers can do to delay and cost money... all the time making it hard for any 3pp from doing anything.
This is what I'm saying. When you're a plaintiff, what strategies are you using to delay. I mean if a defendant want to expedite bringing the matter on for a hearing, how far can the plaintiff go in preventing that before the court tells them to go away and come back when they're ready?

Is the suggestion that there will be interlocutory claims for injunctions, etc? I can see that. But equally those claims give the defendant a chance to show that their claim of right is a strong one.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not a litigator.
 

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SOmeone in another thread told me that the injunction thing that could shut down the 3pp from continueing until the case is resolved is unlikely to happen... for reasons. I don't understand the legal things, but it's very possible.
So some guy told you... and you don't recall the reasons.

Got it. (y) ;)
 

SOmeone in another thread told me that the injunction thing that could shut down the 3pp from continueing until the case is resolved is unlikely to happen... for reasons. I don't understand the legal things, but it's very possible.
I think this is a hard argument for Hasbro to make because they have grown and prospered with this being in place for quite a while. Maybe they can claim their new edition launch might be irreparably harmed if there is competition but that seems like a stretch when there are plenty of non-OGL alternatives.
 
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S'mon

Legend
SOmeone in another thread told me that the injunction thing that could shut down the 3pp from continueing until the case is resolved is unlikely to happen... for reasons. I don't understand the legal things, but it's very possible.

It seemed unlikely to me, but I only really know English procedure on interim injunctions. They are decided on balance of convenience. Shutting down an entire company (eg Paizo) over this kind of dispute just would not happen.

I did a mini-pupillage many years ago with a Barristers' chambers (that of Robin Jacob). Vogue magazine got an injunction to have black fashion magazine "Vogue in Black" taken off the shelves of WH Smith newsagents, on the basis of likely infringement of the Vogue TM. That's the kind of thing that can happen. It would be much much less likely if Vogue in Black had a licence from Vogue to use the word Vogue, and Vogue claimed to be able to terminate the licence, despite the lack of such a term in the licence.
 

I think they can delay it to add cost and grind down their opponents who are much smaller than them by dragging out the pre-trial steps as long as possible, but they will be fighting against defense lawyers who will be trying for a speedy trial. Hard to say, some of it goes to the judge and how busy they are and how pissed they get over such tactics.
Keep in mind that this is a civil matter, so a speedy trial is not as serious an issue. And it involves a relatively small amount of money.

Meanwhile, multi-billion-dollar suits over issues that literally involve life & death are in the same courts, entering their 6th+ plus year....

Mann v. Ford is a good example: five years from filing to a token settlement ($8000 per on the average) for actions that are linked to numerous deaths.
 

I think this is a hard argument for Hasbro to make because they have grown and prospered with this being in place for quite a while. Maybe they can claim their new edition launch might be irreparably harmed if their is competition but that seems like a stretch when there are plenty of non-OGL alternatives.
Not hard to make at all. Its their property.
 

pemerton

Legend
SOmeone in another thread told me that the injunction thing that could shut down the 3pp from continueing until the case is resolved is unlikely to happen... for reasons. I don't understand the legal things, but it's very possible.
If WotC thinks they have a weak claim, because the defendant has a strong contract-based defence, it's not obvious to me that it's good to get this going from the outset by seeking an interlocutory injunction, thereby inviting the defendant to make the case about how strong their contractual claim is.

I think they can delay it to add cost and grind down their opponents who are much smaller than them by dragging out the pre-trial steps as long as possible, but they will be fighting against defense lawyers who will be trying for a speedy trial. Hard to say, some of it goes to the judge and how busy they are and how pissed they get over such tactics.
Your bit about wanting a speedy trial is exactly what I have in mind.

The most obvious reason in principle, for me at least, to commence early is to protect the plaintiff's rights with an interlocutory injunction. But in this scenario, for the reasons I gave above, it's not clear that's a winner for WotC.

And it's not like WotC needs a heap of discovery: the factual question of the relationship between the defendant's work and SRD's work is suggested, even if not fully resolved, by the OGL section 15 declaration.

I don't want to suggest that litigation is a piece of cake or anything. I'm just curious about delay as a plaintiff-side strategy when the defendant wants to bring on the hearing.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
I'm curious about this.

If WotC commences against a 3PP who continues to publish under the OGL v 1.0a, alleging that that licensee is infringing WotC's copyrights, how are they going to prevent their matter from coming in front of a court?

I'm not and have never been a litigator, and so am probably missing something (or many things) - but stopping the matter from coming before a court sounds to me more like a defendant's strategy than a plaintiff's strategy.

Perhaps @Steel_Wind could chime in?
Well, the old addage is that plaintiffs run TO the courtroom; defendants run away FROM the courtroom. That much is true; however, it can change depending on.

What WotC would want is to run TO the courtroom to obtain an injunction -- WIN -- and then RUN AWAY from the courtroom to delay the ultimate hearing on the merits so that the underlying injunctive remedy (which it has already received the benefit of) is not displaced or otherwise undone. As a term of obtaining an injunction, most jurisdictions require that the party seeking the injunction gives an undertaking in damages, too. So ultimately, if the injunction was wrongly granted, the party that obtained the injunction is writing a cheque for damages to the other side, even if they win the underlying case. That's another reason why you don't want the ultimate hearing on the merits.

Injunctions turn upon the unique facts of each case. As I indicated earlier in this thread, I am highly skeptical that WotC could obtain an injunction under the 1.0a OGL based on some revision to the OGL in 1.1, as it is unlikely to meet the 3 part test for an injunction. The test was set down by the House of Lords in American Cyanamid Co. v. Ethicon Ltd., [1975] l All E.R. 504 and is the law which is followed in all common law jurisdictions, including the United States, though there is variation as to when it applies and WHAT it applies to between jurisdictions.

The injunction test requires the moving party who seeks injunctive relief to prove on a balance or probabilities:

  • it appears to have a strong case and a prima facie right to the relief in dispute;
  • it would suffer irreparable harm were the injunction not granted; and
  • the balance of convenience favours granting the injunction.

While every injunction case turns upon its own specific facts, I do not think based on what we have seen so far that WotC would get an injunction under the OGL 1.0a.... but PLEASE take that well-salted. This stuff is highly fact dependent and every case is different. Trying to moot something like this absent facts is not terribly helpful - or an accurate projection, okay?

Anyway, if WotC DID get an injunction, after that, they would seek to delay any ultimate hearing on the merits. Those would be the typical circumstances that reverses the addage of who runs to the courtroom and who runs away from it.
 

pemerton

Legend
Thanks @Steel_Wind, that's a great analysis even with all its salt.

I think the relative weakness of WotC's claim - or to put it the other way around, the apparent strength of the defendant's claim of right - would be one aspect that would tend to tell against an interlocutory injunction. @S'mon has also suggested upthread that the balance of convenience is likely to run against WotC. So on this we all seem to be ad idem.
 

Mann v. Ford is a good example: five years from filing to a token settlement ($8000 per on the average) for actions that are linked to numerous deaths.
how... I mean that is insane cases that are about deaths can take 5 year!?! I know people can drag things out but I would think that would step on the gas... I guess I hold too much hope in some ways.
 

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