D&D 5E So this is how D&D 5e dies, a beautiful start only to die in disgrace because of mismanagement. RIP 5e

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I suspect that WotC has only scratched the surface of their plans. WotC expected some backlash from OGL 1.1 but this feels like we are still in the opening phase of their monetization strategy.
Oh, undoubtedly! It’s pretty obvious that the primary goal here is to secure greater control over the brand and insure that their VTT is the only one you can play D&D on. If they succeed in this, the greedy practices are just going to keep coming. So, now’s a good time to abandon ship.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
But it is the business for 3pp who make products that you would potentially buy.
They aren't me, though. I do recognize thst it is unfortunate if someone goes out of business, but thst doesn't impact whether I will buy a Planescape set if it tickles my fancy. My purchase in that case would be neither proximate nor formal cooperation in corporate shenanigans.
 

It's wild to me that something like the OGL has people more upset than WotC's announcement to their shareholders that D&D was under monetized and their intentions to create a "recurrent spending environment" using very similar language to what video companies have been using these last few years. To my ears, that sounded an awful lot like, "we intend to treat our customers like the garbage they are," but most people here seemed to take it in stride saying I was overreacting. But, there you go, we all have our limits and care about different things.
The reality is that people care more about what has happened, or is happening, than what might happen, for better or worse.

(Usually worse, c.f. climate change etc.)

Saying that D&D is "under-monetized" is a vague statement. Is it threatening? Yes. Is it also the sort of thing corporate types often say, but can have a thousand different meanings? Yes.

It's once it starts manifesting that people are actually going to get upset. And @Charlaquin is 100% right. The whole OGL debacle is a manifestation of "D&D is under-monetized". WotC can squeak and squirm and PR-bollocks as much as they like about protecting us from bigots who have mysteriously never created a problem previously*, but it's clear that the real goal was to lock down the entire D&D-material-related industry, and force every company but WotC to become unprofitable above a tiny size, with any profits they might have made going to WotC instead. Also I'm going to be real, and say I don't believe for one second the wild legal overreach in the perpetual grant of everything to WotC was purely IP protection - indeed that WotC is willing to back down proves that, no matter how many people say "tinfoil" or whatever. It served that purpose, but also gave WotC leverage if any company in future was uncooperative.

Anyway, point is, actions are what people care about. Every big corporate games company makes vaguely threatening-sounding statements pretty often. Some of them turn out to be nothing but wind (most, even), others have terrible consequences, there's no way to tell.

Personally I took the comments more as referring to D&D Beyond and the 3D VTT than to D&D itself, let alone the 3PP market. That didn't even make sense to me. The 3PP market is laughably tiny next to WotC, and clearly not a place any sane person would think to monetize. Unfortunately WotC has proven its current leadership are bone-headed idiots at best. We can no longer expect sane or rational decisions from a company that tried to ask people for 15-25% of their revenue, and total everlasting control of everything they published. That they backed down on both completely doesn't speak well of WotC - on the direct contrary, it shows they're willing to make outrageous demands that clearly mean nothing to them. It shows they don't have an understanding of the market, they don't clear goals, and that the demands they're making are not made in good faith.

Making products thst I do not want to buy is a hard line for buying products, yes. The OGL is just business...and it ain't my business.
That doesn't really answer Charlaquin's point, though.

The issue she is pointing out is that, if say, 6E turned into something far more 4E-like, or 7E, or whatever, the existence of the OGL 1.0a means people could continue to make products that you did want to buy. Like, what did you do in the 4E era? Honest question. Did you just keep playing 3.5E, and bought nothing new? Did you go over to Pathfinder? Did you stop playing? Change to another RPG? These are all valid options, but the point is, the OGL 1.0a added to those options.

Also, you like 5E, right? Do you think 5E, in any form like this, would have existed if Pathfinder didn't cause such a problem for 4E? Because I do not. And without the OGL, people wouldn't have had the legal certainty to create Pathfinder.

Now, I will say I think a case can be made that maybe we're past that, but we'll only know once someone tries, and WotC starts suing people, or not. Which was exactly why it didn't happen previously.


* = For pretty obvious reasons. Kickstarter doesn't allow openly bigoted projects (they publicly committed to BLM and so on), and fans don't support them anyway. When something slips through, fans tend to spot it and raise a ruckus, like some dogwhistle white-nationalist imagery in a fishing card game (!!!), which immediately got removed and apologised for. DM's Guild obviously would immediately remove any product which was bigoted unless it was old TSR/WotC material with a health warning on it. Similarly for Drivethru.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
If I don't care for a product, I won't buy it. I'm not sure how hard that is to understand...?
It isn’t. That you wouldn’t buy a 4e like product is not the part I’m confused by.
The OGL thing did bother me enough to sign a couple Change.org petitions, but I'm not a paid Beyond subscriber, and it isn't enough to dissuade me from buying a product I do want in the future
That’s the part that’s weird to me. A 4e-like product is just a product you don’t want to buy. The removal of the OGL is a move that could kill countless products you might otherwise want to buy. Moreover, it will kill a lot of people’s livelihoods.
Want product, buy product. Don't want product, don't buy product. Simple as that.
Seems like a shortsighted axiom to base all of your purchasing decisions on. Like, it works fine when you’re otherwise satisfied with the company that makes the product. But when the company starts making decisions one doesn’t agree with, refraining from buying their products (even, and perhaps especially, if you want them) is the only way we as consumers can communicate that we are displeased with those decisions in a way the company will actually care about.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
The issue she is pointing out is that, if say, 6E turned into something far more 4E-like, or 7E, or whatever, the existence of the OGL 1.0a means people could continue to make products that you did want to buy. Like, what did you do in the 4E era? Honest question. Did you just keep playing 3.5E, and bought nothing new? Did you go over to Pathfinder? Did you stop playing? Change to another RPG? These are all valid options, but the point is, the OGL 1.0a added to those options.
I stopped playing RPGs entirely. 4E wasn't something that I wanted to play, but it also kind of highlighted what was frustrsting me in 3.5, so I just...stopped. Until I saw a KREO D&D ad playing before the LEGO movie in theaters and found out there was a new Edition coming in a few months and then things changed real fast.

At this point, I know enough about what's out there thar I can play other games...or just keep using my hefty supply of 5E products.

I do think some cool stuff is likely to come out of the ORC initiative, and I don't think WotC is making optimal moves.

But making suboptimal business decisions isn't disqualifying for me buying products in the same way that making products I don't want to buy is. That is pretty absolute...?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
It isn’t. That you wouldn’t buy a 4e like product is not the part I’m confused by.

That’s the part that’s weird to me. A 4e-like product is just a product you don’t want to buy. The removal of the OGL is a move that could kill countless products you might otherwise want to buy. Moreover, it will kill a lot of people’s livelihoods.

Seems like a shortsighted axiom to base all of your purchasing decisions on. Like, it works fine when you’re otherwise satisfied with the company that makes the product. But when the company starts making decisions one doesn’t agree with, refraining from buying their products (even, and perhaps especially, if you want them) is the only way we as consumers can communicate that we are displeased with those decisions in a way the company will actually care about.
There are lines they could cross that would have that effect on me (I've cited Ubisoft and Activision and their wickedness before), but the OGL just isn't that caliber of an influence on my decision making.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
There are lines they could cross that would have that effect on me (I've cited Ubisoft and Activision and their wickedness before), but the OGL just isn't that caliber of an influence on my decision making.
To which I again say, ok I guess, but you make it sound like making the game more like 4e is that caliber of influence to you. Which… I get not being particularly interested in buying such a product, I just don’t get caring more about that than about the OGL.
 

I stopped playing RPGs entirely. 4E wasn't something that I wanted to play, but it also kind of highlighted what was frustrsting me in 3.5, so I just...stopped. Until I saw a KREO D&D ad playing before the LEGO movie in theaters and found out there was a new Edition coming in a few months and then things changed real fast.

At this point, I know enough about what's out there thar I can play other games...or just keep using my hefty supply of 5E products.

I do think some cool stuff is likely to come out of the ORC initiative, and I don't think WotC is making optimal moves.

But making suboptimal business decisions isn't disqualifying for me buying products in the same way that making products I don't want to buy is. That is pretty absolute...?
Makes sense, thank you for the answer, and I do get it, I just think it's kind of short-sighted when the business decisions potentially cause down-the-line consequences.

Honestly at this point I think the OGL stuff will probably play out and as dumb as it's been, likely end better for the industry than for WotC. I hope the OGL 1.0a gets preserved, or better yet we find a way to extract stuff from it (where the authors want it), and we need to keep pressuring WotC in my view, but I think the miscalculation has been so large that as you say, positive stuff may come out of it.

The 3D VTT on the other hand could well doom 5E/1D&D.

I think that, given they're pouring tens of millions into it, they're going to be expecting something incredibly profitable ("WoW 2" as I put it previously), and if they don't immediately see that profit, they're likely to try more and more extreme approaches to monetization, which are very likely to be damaging to the game, including making content which should be in books exclusive to the 3D VTT, possibly even basically abandoning books (I don't think that's likely, but WotC has done a lot of "unlikely lol" stuff in the last month or so).

That's also, sadly, a risk if it does well, but ironically probably a somewhat smaller risk, as people are less prone to poke at something doing well.

I don't include this as random doomsaying, but because we're discussing the potential dangers for D&D going forwards. And I think the 3D VTT is a huge danger given the unprecedented level of investment in it (and thus unprecedented expected returns).
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
To which I again say, ok I guess, but you make it sound like making the game more like 4e is that caliber of influence to you. Which… I get not being particularly interested in buying such a product, I just don’t get caring more about that than about the OGL.
The OGL kerfuffle, though I am not a fan of it, is not something that will impact if I buy a book that appeals to me.

A book not appealing to me does impact me buying it. It doesn't have to be 4E-ish specifically, I also wouldn't buy a 3.5 revival or probably a bunch of other directions that WotC could take the game. I have zero interest in ever buying the Acquisitions Incorporated book, because ot doesn't float my boat. I have nothing against it on some ethical level, nor do I have any beef with 4E or 3.5, but it is not a book that I want to pay money for at all and those are games that I would not want to play at this point.

Corporate shenanigans, up to a certain threshold, do not make me more or less likely to buy a book that I want to buy. I didn't think that I was doing WotC a favor out of the goodness of my heart when I bought Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel, I bought the book because I wanted it.
 


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