D&D 5E So this is how D&D 5e dies, a beautiful start only to die in disgrace because of mismanagement. RIP 5e


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Parmandur

Book-Friend
D&D is dead. It's probably been dead a couple years into 5e, and we just didn't notice.
I guess I don't care what WotC does anymore. They're no longer worth my time, money, attention, or imagination.
They're a mega billion dollar business bereft of all creativity and respect for their fans.
...

Did you think they respected you 5, 10, or 20 years ago, theybtheybwerr part of a billion dollar business and did queationabke things all the time...?
 



Wait and see perhaps da?
I mean, they've had three attempts now, but they're just profoundly "not getting it", so what are we supposed to expecting?

What I actually expect is later this week we get yet another OGL, and it's got the same huge problems with non-opt-in deauthorization - i.e. claiming you can never make an OGL 1.0a product again and the complete removal of the concept of OGC, meaning nothing can ever be shared again. Problems that literally mean it's not an OGL, so add that name the pile of lies.
 

Did you think they respected you 5, 10, or 20 years ago, theybtheybwerr part of a billion dollar business and did queationabke things all the time...?
WotC wasn't themselves a "billion dollar business" until less than 5 years ago so that's nonsensical.

And I honestly don't remember WotC doing anything ethically "questionable" in 3.XE.

The GSL was the first time I had cause to question the ethics of WotC re: D&D.

5E was so well-behaved ethics-wise, until recently, that I had quite forgotten about that.

Also this argument is hilarious - "You didn't leave the when Bobby took a crap in your living room, you didn't leave when Bobby took a piss on your curtains, you didn't leave when Bobby threw up on your cat, but you're leaving now he punched you in the face?!?!?". Like, do you not see that, at best, you're making the company look like crap and just suggesting we should all accept bad behaviour because we did before? That's bananas space moon logic.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
I mean, they've had three attempts now, but they're just profoundly "not getting it", so what are we supposed to expecting?

What I actually expect is later this week we get yet another OGL, and it's got the same huge problems with non-opt-in deauthorization - i.e. claiming you can never make an OGL 1.0a product again and the complete removal of the concept of OGC, meaning nothing can ever be shared again. Problems that literally mean it's not an OGL, so add that name the pile of lies.

Well they may not be able to revoke the OGL and ORC may not let you clone 5E.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
WotC wasn't themselves a "billion dollar business" until less than 5 years ago so that's nonsensical.

And I honestly don't remember WotC doing anything ethically "questionable" in 3.XE.

The GSL was the first time I had cause to question the ethics of WotC re: D&D.

5E was so well-behaved ethics-wise, until recently, that I had quite forgotten about that.

Also this argument is hilarious - "You didn't leave the when Bobby took a crap in your living room, you didn't leave when Bobby took a piss on your curtains, you didn't leave when Bobby threw up on your cat, but you're leaving now he punched you in the face?!?!?". Like, do you not see that, at best, you're making the company look like crap and just suggesting we should all accept bad behaviour because we did before? That's bananas space moon logic.
Why do people keep making romantic relationship parallels with WotC...? They are a service provider, not my significant other. They aren't even our friends, let alone romantic partners.

And the OGL is about legal dealings between parties who are not me (which aren't probably illegal or particularly unethical that I can tell, just business), not myself putting up with being abused. If WotC put out books that were poisonous to the touch, ala Name of the Rose, or were doing something Ubisoft levels out of line in terms of law and ethics that would be one thing. But they ain't.

In the 3.x era, their treatment of employees (such as the traditional Holiday layoffs) were worse than any OGL shenanigans in an ethical analysis. And He'll, some of the 3 X products were more ethically problematic (my wife was horrified looking through 3E Oriental Adventures at Half-Price Books a couple years back).
 

Oofta

Legend
The imminent death of D&D has been predicted more than once. It was a mistake of monumental proportions but many people won't care as long as they can play a game they can enjoy.

Maybe the fanbase will take a significant hit, maybe it won't. One thing for certain, it's not going away anytime soon.
 

Well they may not be able to revoke the OGL and ORC may not let you clone 5E.
You can definitely clone 5E and ORC is 100% irrelevant to whether you can (if you think it is relevant, you literally don't understand how the law works). That's not even going to be a question. WotC launching a legal attack on someone cloning 5E outside the OGL would be absolute suicide on multiple levels.

The absolute best-case scenario for WotC attacking essentially a "non-OGL 5E clone" is that WotC causes itself massive PR damage, and loses a bunch of copyrights, all in order to damage a company that's not really a competitor, so it essentially gains nothing. But the rest of the industry gains a precedent showing what actually is copyright'd, and how they can work around that, which would be a huge boon.

That's the best-case scenario.

The worst case is the same or even more PR damage, it loses on every single copyright point (which is not that unlikely), and might even end up being forced to pay the costs of its victim. Then the industry learns that it can freely clone 5E without any fear at all, and WotC has essentially thrown away any threat value it had.

As for "they may not be able to revoke the OGL", yeah, maybe not, but they are acting as if they believe they can 100%, and are making all their decisions on that basis, so it's kind of irrelevant. We won't get a better OGL until/unless they stop that.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm sorry, but, the hyperbole here is just breathtaking.

I don't know about anyone else, but, of all the people I gamed with over the years, and it's been quite a few over the past 20 years, I can count on one hand the number who bought or used 3rd party products. The overwhelming majority of gamers doesn't know about and doesn't care about the OGL.

I say this as someone who HAS been a supporter of 3rd party products since day 1. My first 3e campaign was set in Scarred Lands. I ran the World's Largest Dungeon. I own multiple Kobold monster manuals for 5e and have run more than a few 3rd party modules. Hell, I've had published 3rd party producers at my table. Yet, any time I've suggested using 3rd party products for anything - classes, spells, races, ship combat rules - anything, I've been met with nothing but crickets. If it doesn't have the WotC Brand of Approval on it, it doesn't exist.

So, no, this isn't the "end of D&D".

Which doesn't mean that it's not important and something we should be talking about. Sure. Absolutely. I strongly disagree with what WotC has done and I hope that cooler heads will prevail ultimately and most of this is going to go away. Again, as I write this, NOTHING has been decided. Nothing is set in stone. Yes, WotC wanted to do stuff that is mind bogglingly stupid. But, they haven't actually done it yet.

Until such time as there is an ACTUAL OGL 2.0, not just a draft document, but, the actual thing that is official, I'm going to reserve a lot of judgement. And I certainly won't judge anyone else for either leaving D&D or staying with it. Either way is perfectly fine. Because, there's one thing about, the louder and more hysterical people keep getting, the less likely I am to actually have any sympathy for the position.
 


Why do people keep making romantic relationship parallels with WotC...?
That you're interpreting that extremely intentionally un-romantic and gross analogy as "romantic" is absolutely wild stuff.

Good god dude. What is your idea of dating like?!

I mean mind = blown here. It feels like I could have used an analogy about Transformers punching each other in the face and you'd have called it "romantic".
And the OGL is about legal dealings between parties who are not me (which aren't probably illegal or particularly unethical that I can tell, just business), not myself putting up with being abused.
No, you're not allowed to do this.

You drew the parallel, you said "well they were unethical before, why is it a problem now". So you don't get to try and act like you didn't argue that.
n the 3.x era, their treatment of employees (such as the traditional Holiday layoffs) were worse than any OGL shenanigans in an ethical analysis.
LOL no. Also your own logic destroys that, frankly.

And again, pointing out WotC were crappy before, and they're crappy now just gives people extra reasons to ditch them. You don't seem to be getting that bit.
He'll, some of the 3 X products were more ethically problematic (my wife was horrified looking through 3E Oriental Adventures at Half-Price Books a couple years back).
I don't think that's really "ethically problematic", rather "problematic" in an entirely different sense but to be fair I've never seen it.
 

Azzy

KMF DM
Last year I'd thought that One D&D was a minor edition change that was functionally the next phase of D&D 5e.

With this OGL situation it seems clear 5e is dying and will be dead before the end of the year.

So much potential, never fully realized, now it's over, or soon to be over RIP 5e.
As disappointed as I am in WotC, I find this to be a hilariously over the top takeaway.
 

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