A "theory" thread

pemerton

Legend
This post tries to say a few things about RPGing.

To begin, the caveats. I'm not going to say anything about the social dynamics of RPGing, of what is involved in persuading people to play a game, of the difference between "casual" and hardcore players, etc. I'm assuming committed players who take the play of the game seriously.

And I'm assuming mainstream RPGing in which there are two distinct participant roles: the GM, and the other players. Games like AD&D, Classic Traveller, Rolemaster, Burning Wheel, Apocalypse World, etc, etc are all examples of this.

Next, the key proposition: at the heart of RPGing is shared imagination. Imaginary people do imagined things in imagined places.

Some boardgames also involve imagined things. But in a boardgame the imagination is optional and epiphenomenal. When I play Mystic Wood, for instance, and my knight fights the troll, I can imagine a fight going on. But all that matters to game play is the numbers on the playing pieces, and the numbers on the rolled dice. The flavour text makes the game more fun, but doesn't actually affect the game play. In a RPG, this is not the case. The fiction matters.

The main difference between the participant roles is how they contribute to the fiction and how they engage with the fiction. The players "insert" themselves into the fiction by way of imagined persons who are at the centre of the shared fiction, in the sense that most of the shared fiction is concerned with the events involving and surrounding these imaginary people. The players contribute to the fiction first-and-foremost by saying what it is that their characters do.

The players can only perform that function if there is some context in which their characters act: an imagined situation in which those character find themselves. The GM's principal job is to provide that context.

Different RPGs set different rules for what the players are allowed to tell us about their characters; and for what the GM is allowed to tell us about the situation/context. That difference across RPGs seems to reflect some significant differences in preferences among the RPGing community. Just to give some examples, starting with situation some RPGs require the GM to take the situation, or perhaps extrapolate the situation, from prior preparation (Moldvay Basic is one example; Torchbearer is another); some RPGs invite the GM to construct the situation in part based on asking questions of the characters (eg "How do you find yourself here?" or "Why is so-and-so really angry at you?") - Apocalypse World and Marvel Heroic RP are two examples; some RPGs expect the GM to construct the situation by building on cues provided by the players as part of their own process of building their characters (Burning Wheel is an example; 4e D&D can come close with its player-authored quests). An example of establishing situation/context that comes close to violating the normal participant role boundaries is the Sorcerer-style "kicker", where the player authors the event/situation that spurs the character into the action the game will be concerned with, and the GM is obliged to incorporate and build on that in their initial framing.

When it comes to players telling us about their characters, there are a lot of differences too. In Classic Traveller, what a player is allowed to tell us about their character is heavily circumscribed by a process of rolling on tables. It's typical, in D&D, for what a player is allowed to tell us about their character to be constrained by rules about race/ancestry, character classes, and starting level (so eg in AD&D it's not typically permitted for a player to introduce us to a character who is a Dwarven Wizard-King of such-and-such a realm; by contrast, the MHRP Annihilation Event Book is chock full of playable characters who resemble just that). In Cthulhu Dark, the rules for character build are: tell us your name and tell us your occupation. That's much more permissive than many RPGs.

Moving on: suppose the GM provides a context, and a player says "Cool, I do [= my character will attempt to do] such-and-such". The next step is to work out what happens in the fiction. How does the shared imaginary stuff change? Up to that moment, everyone was imaging one thing - some combination of what the GM said about the situation, and what the player said about their character. What do they have to imagine now?

This is where action resolution comes in. The variety here is at least as much as the variety in rules about establishing characters and establishing contexts. A given RPG (eg 5e D&D) can itself contain a wide variety of rules on this issue, that are sensitive to such things as what sort of character and what sort of context and what sort of action. Of the RPGs I'm familiar with, I think the two that have the highest degree of internal unity in how they handle action resolution are Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic, and Agon 2nd ed.

This post is not going to try and identify even a fraction of the possible approaches to action resolution. But here a few things that can be relevant:

*In some RPGs, for some actions, the GM is allowed to say what happens next simply by (i) consulting some pre-game prep and then (ii) extrapolating, from that prep and from the declared action, what happens next. This is a particularly common approach to actions that involve moving places and looking around them.

*In some RPGs, details of the shared fiction can be very important in resolving declared actions. This can connect to the above (eg if the player tells the GM "I look in such-and-such a place while wearing my ultraviolet goggles", then the GM will reply - based on their notes - "You see such-and-such a thing"). Or it can be distinct from it - eg there might be some other way of establishing those details (eg in Classic Traveller, a player might succeed on a Streetwise check), but once established they matter importantly to resolving actions. Other RPGs may rely on a more abstract or "fuzzy" or trope-y sense of the details (I tend to find that MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, and often also 4e D&D, is like this.)

*In some RPGs, for some actions, there is quite a complicated mechanical/mathematical process that must be gone through before anyone can work out what happens next. Hit point attrition conflict resolution (eg most approaches to D&D combat; the conflict resolution system in Torchbearer) are examples of this.

*In some RPGs, the players declaration of action can impose strong constraints on what happens next (eg in Burning Wheel, if a player declares an object, and then wins on the ensuing dice roll, the intent of the declared action comes to pass and not even the GM has authority to negate it be introducing new, conflicting fiction).

*Connected to the above, there can be very different connections between resolving a declared action, and what the GM is allowed to say in establishing the subsequent, new context. Eg suppose the character is exploring a sinister fortress, and comes upon a heavy door, and declares "I force it open!". In both Moldvay Basic D&D and in Torchbearer, this action declaration triggers a roll of the dice. In Moldvay Basic, one possible upshot is that nothing changes - the character fails to open the door, and is still there confronted by a heavy door. In Torchbearer, that is not a permitted result, because a failure on the dice requires the GM to either narrate success on the action, but the character suffers a condition; or to narrate a "twist".

*Still connected to the above, the role of pre-play preparation can be quite different. Some RPGs eschew it (eg this is how I generally approach Burning Wheel). Some use it as a source of inspiration/ideas for the GM in narrating consequences, especially of failed rolls by the player (eg part of Torchbearer prep includes thinking up a list of possible "twists"; part of AW prep involves coming up with fronts and threats that provide material for GM moves). Some use prep as a strong constraint - eg in Moldvay Basic, whether or not the failed attempt to open the door attracts unwanted attention might be decided by the GM looking at their map and key, and forming a view as to who might have heard the noise and how they might respond.​

There's a lot more that could be said, and more examples that could be given. But maybe the above is enough to prompt some replies?

(By way of acknowledgement: while I've not cited anyone else in this post, it draws very heavily on the work of Vincent Baker and is also influenced by reading Luke Crane (Burning Wheel) and Robin Laws (HeroWars, HeroQuest revised.)
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad


pemerton

Legend
So, my first observation is that much partisanship seems to accrue around propositions of traits associated with specific definitions of 'flavors' of RPG and reputed associated play experience.
My OP doesn't try and say anything about play experience. Nor about why someone might find RPGing interesting. Those two things are related, but I think there's a lot of variation from person to person and table to table as to how they're related.

My focus is on procedures of play - how the shared fiction is established. Which is not to say that other things aren't reasonable ones to talk about! Just to clarify what I think I've talked about.

Even within the confines of my focus, I've observed over the years that their can be contention. Perhaps there'll even be some in this thread. But for what it's worth, I don't think anything I've said in the OP is all that contentious.
 

I'm not sure many RPGs has a shared fiction. I mean it sounds good when like written on the cover of an RPG book, but does not mean much.

The typical GM is sharing the fiction they made, as that is the whole base of most any RPG. But few players what to "share" , they want to "disrupt" or even "destroy". The reason is simple, the GM cares about all the players and the game. The player only cares about themselves.

And sure there are all the Other Games made specifically to not be D&D. They feature things like hard, harsh rule limits on what the GM can do. And on the other side the player get the ability to alter reality. But this is not a shared fiction either, as the game just switched the GM and players power and that is it.

And, your Torchbearer example, is that accurate? The players can NEVER fail a dice roll? Well, why even roll the dice then? Just sit down to play the game for a couple seconds, tell the players they won the game, and then do something else.

I guess you said the GM can say "you failed the pointless roll, but auto do it" and give a penalty. But is this a typical RPG penalty like "oh you get a -1 to rolls" for an hour, that does not really mean anything. You can't ever fail, right, so any penalty is meaningless. Or can the penalty be like "go sit in the corner you can't play for an hour"?

Or a "twist"? But they still auto succeed. So the twist can't effect that right? So this seems a bit pointless too. The GM says "well your one armed weak halfling automatically opens the thirty foot tall solid iron magically locked door after rolling a two....but, oh look, it starts to rain! What a Twist!"

Or is there a bit more detail here?
 

My OP doesn't try and say anything about play experience. Nor about why someone might find RPGing interesting. Those two things are related, but I think there's a lot of variation from person to person and table to table as to how they're related.

My focus is on procedures of play - how the shared fiction is established. Which is not to say that other things aren't reasonable ones to talk about! Just to clarify what I think I've talked about.

Even within the confines of my focus, I've observed over the years that their can be contention. Perhaps there'll even be some in this thread. But for what it's worth, I don't think anything I've said in the OP is all that contentious.
I don't think anything in the OP is contentious either. I am simply thinking about how the different possible theoretical 'builds' of game come to be associated with different ideas and preferences in practitioners of role-playing games.

As for contention within the realm of theory, shorn of any preference, what really is the controversy? I mean, your fundamental definition can't REALLY seriously be contended. Play must start with talk, and the only germane topic of that talk is one of three things:

* what is the state of the fiction?
* what are the attributes of this character?
* what do the rules say?

And the first of these is preeminent for the vary reason you noted, that without the discussion of the state of the fiction, we can only really be talking about a board game (or something very similar, I use the term loosely here).

You didn't really talk about my point 2, which is probably a mix of fiction and rules mediated things (IE who my character is friends with may be fiction, his hit points are a matter purely of mechanics).

And this is why, IME, all credible analyses flow from here into a discussion/modeling of the process by which these three things interact and evolve throughout play.
 

I'm not sure many RPGs has a shared fiction. I mean it sounds good when like written on the cover of an RPG book, but does not mean much.
I don't think we're speaking the same language here. When we talk about 'fiction' we simply mean "what is going on in the game, fictionally." So, in a B/X dungeon crawl the PCs are marching in a certain order down corridor M in a westerly direction, and they are moving carefully. Corridor M smells moldy and has slick walls of cut grey rock. Roger the Elf has a nasty cut above his left eye which he got in an altercation with a kobold a few minutes ago. Belgar the Dwarf is annoyed with him because Roger moved too far out ahead of the rest of the group and is now unable to fight on the front line due to his injury, so that Belgar is stuck next to that rat (halfling) Gordo.

Now, there may be what we call 'aids' or concrete tools at the table which turn some of this into a kind of mechanical game state (IE some minis that we use to indicate the marching order) but fundamentally all of this was agreed upon by the players and the GM either through some sort of informal negotiation; "give me your marching order" or via rules adjudication "The kobold does 2 points of damage to Roger!" (the nature of his injury is left to the imagination, perhaps Roger's player describes it).
The typical GM is sharing the fiction they made, as that is the whole base of most any RPG. But few players what to "share" , they want to "disrupt" or even "destroy". The reason is simple, the GM cares about all the players and the game. The player only cares about themselves.
As I describe it above, the fiction isn't subject to 'destruction'. Agreement as to what the fiction IS can break down however, if the players stop communicating and agreeing on what it is.
And sure there are all the Other Games made specifically to not be D&D. They feature things like hard, harsh rule limits on what the GM can do. And on the other side the player get the ability to alter reality. But this is not a shared fiction either, as the game just switched the GM and players power and that is it.
Which of @pemerton's models of game play process are you referring to here? I mean, we don't have to get exhaustive, but lets pick one and consider it. Or a different proposal that he didn't touch on.
And, your Torchbearer example, is that accurate? The players can NEVER fail a dice roll? Well, why even roll the dice then? Just sit down to play the game for a couple seconds, tell the players they won the game, and then do something else.
Torchbearer is a REALLY hard game! I mean, seriously, it takes some incredibly astute play to survive and get ahead in that game. It is in fact pretty merciless (at least IME, I don't doubt it can be played in a bit less hard-edged fashion). Every time your character attempts a task, first of all a 'turn' passes (the grind) and after FOUR turns you must eat or drink (and you can carry very small amounts of gear and supplies!). Beyond that, your light sources burn down, and again you can carry only a few light sources. So instantly you are severely challenged to find the most efficient solutions to every problem!

Beyond the grind, TB is HARSH. Every time you don't roll 'success' you suffer a condition, or a twist. Conditions are NASTY, they take away dice from all your rolls (its a dice pool game, the core rules are basically Burning Wheel), and also reduce your abilities in other ways, like preventing you from invoking your wises, giving help, etc. Getting successes is also NOT easy. You have to earn fate and persona points in order to do things like tap nature (a large bonus), reroll dice, etc. You also need to earn 'checks' which are points you expend during down time and that is done by invoking your own traits against yourself (IE my character is 'quiet', so he might accidentally surprise someone and make them angry at him).

Twists are generally WORSE even than conditions, involving things like "oops you just broke your weapon" or "the dragon wakes up" or whatever.

Also, in TB, a lot of the game revolves around contests, which are fairly similar in a general way to a D&D combat. Each side figures out a strategy every round and then characters make checks based on interaction between the two side's strategies. If you pick unwisely, you could end up with no check at all, or only be able to defend, or give your opponent a big advantage in the next move, etc. Consequences of failure are also pretty critical here, as you can end up being disarmed or forced out of the fight (or whatever type of contest it is, it could be a baking competition). These things take considerable skill to win, and essentially the end result depends on the relative strengths of the sides, and their overall goals, modulated by how much 'damage' each side took.
I guess you said the GM can say "you failed the pointless roll, but auto do it" and give a penalty. But is this a typical RPG penalty like "oh you get a -1 to rolls" for an hour, that does not really mean anything. You can't ever fail, right, so any penalty is meaningless. Or can the penalty be like "go sit in the corner you can't play for an hour"?
Well, your character could be ganked (gain the dead condition). Or wounded so badly that they can't do anything. MOST likely you will get a condition, like say "Exhausted" which causes a -1 to the disposition in a contest (basically how many 'hit dice' the party has to play with)and you are not allowed to use your "instinct", which is basically a situation where your character can gain a fate point by taking some action. Awanye the Elf has an instinct of "When in camp, sing soothing songs of recover" (he can heal people this way, AND gets fate points for it, which is pretty nice since fate points are not easy to get). But if Awanye is exhausted when we make camp, sorry, no fate points, bummer. Exhausted is actually a pretty mild condition. Injured pretty much gives you a -1 die in almost every situation, and if you get another condition while injured, that condition is always DEAD. These conditions are no joke, there are 7 of them (8 if you count dead). Only 1 is a bonus, the other 6 are bad, and you can have up to ALL SIX at one time! Usually if you have 3 you're hurting, and 4 is like being at 2 hit points in D&D, you MIGHT survive whatever happens next, but don't count on it!
Or a "twist"? But they still auto succeed. So the twist can't effect that right? So this seems a bit pointless too. The GM says "well your one armed weak halfling automatically opens the thirty foot tall solid iron magically locked door after rolling a two....but, oh look, it starts to rain! What a Twist!"

Or is there a bit more detail here?
OK, so I remember once our PCs were on a raft and we were fighting this monstrosity of a polar bear that was in the water and wanted to eat us. Finally we killed it, but when we tried to haul it out on shore (because we were, as always super short of food) some of the PCs fell into the icy cold lake. This lead to a whole other obstacle centered around getting them out and making sure they didn't freeze to death (I think there were some conditions imposed during this process, someone got sick, which is nasty). We did come out of it OK, but by the time we spent grind processing the bears, made camp, built a shelter, etc. we only came out ahead like one grind worth of rations!

Lets just say its a tough game. Yes, technically if you say "I'm doing X" then in some sense, assuming it is not a complete fictionally nonsensical BS move, you "do that thing", but just because I attached my rope to a tree at the top of the cliff doesn't mean its going to hold...
 

pemerton

Legend
* what are the attributes of this character?

<snip>

You didn't really talk about my point 2, which is probably a mix of fiction and rules mediated things (IE who my character is friends with may be fiction, his hit points are a matter purely of mechanics).
I tend to think of the rules aspects of the PC as elements of the action resolution rules. But I agree in my discussion of approaches to resolution I didn't say that much about them.

Some of what is on a PC sheet is not really part of the action resolution rules, and is part of what the player is allowed to say about their PC as part of the shared fiction.

I think it is sometimes helpful to draw the boundaries here quite finely. For instance, if my character sheet has a note sword +1: +1 to hit for 1d8+1, that both records something about the fiction (this person is equipped with a magic sword) and also records something about the action resolution rules (ie how we resolve this character fighting with this sword in a D&D-ish RPG).

I think some discussions of "reskinning" in 4e D&D suffered from not reflecting hard enough on where this line should be drawn for particular 4e powers.(Eg a keyword like "fire" straddles the line, as it both establishes something about the fiction of the character, and is a component of the action resolution system.)
 

pemerton

Legend
@bloodtide

You got a pretty full response from @AbdulAlhazred.

Most action declarations in Torchbearer 2e trigger a check. A check is typically rolled against an Obstacle, which is the number of success required - 1 is easy, 4+ is tough. All the dice are d6s. Dice pools are rarely fewer than 2 dice, and in my experience at least rarely larger than single digits. Each die that is 4+ is a success.

If the roll succeeds, the PC achieves what they set out to do. If the roll fails, the GM must choose either (i) to declare that the PC achieves what they set out to do but also accrues a condition, or (ii) that the PC (and perhaps the rest of the group, depending on some rules details and on the fictional situation) suffers a twist.

The way I GM Torchbearer is not as hard as @AbdulAlhazred's GM. And is not as hard as my Burning Wheel GM. But it's not easy. You can read some of my actual play posts here.
 


pemerton

Legend
@bloodtide, something else that might be useful for thinking about this is that, at least in the games that BWHQ has released, if you're rolling dice, something's at stake in the fictional world. If a roll is pointless, then something's gone awry at the table.
To bring this back to the OP:

This is a way in which the fiction can factor into action resolution: what is the normative/evaluative attitude of the participants towards the fiction? This question is especially important in Burning Wheel proper. (And some other systems too.)

It can contrast with (say) a really by-the-book, austere approach to Moldvay Basic or Gygax's AD&D, where those sorts of attitudes are meant to have no bearing on action resolution.

You can see Gygax being a bit on the fence about it in his DMG, p 110, where he canvasses the possibility of the GM adjusting the odds of finding a secret door in favour of the players, in the context where the secret door will lead to an especially entertaining part of the dungeon.

Apocalypse World is interesting in using these normative/evaluative attitudes to inform framing, and consequences (eg "announce offscreen badness" or "provide an opportunity with a cost" clearly have normativity/evaluation built into them), but uses a different approach to actually calling for dice rolls: if you do it, you do it!

In the past @Campbell has expressed the view that the AW approach creates a more "grounded in the fiction" experience, as the normativity/evaluation does not operate at the key moment of determining when to reach for the dice. I don't know if I agree with his description of the experience (and it's possible I'm misdescribing his description) but I can definitely see that there is a technical difference that he has identified, which does make things play differently.

EDIT: I think Torchbearer might actually be closer to AW than BW in this particular respect. Though it's a tricky question, and Torchbearer has a lot of subtlety to it. (More than it seems at first.)
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top