What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

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MGibster

Legend
Being America (#1!), we kind of overshadow what were some incredibly vile instances of slavery involving Africans and indigenous peoples. Sugar plantations, in particular, were known to be incredibly horrifying places.
You're absolutely right. The sugar plantations were particularly brutal from the harvesting of sugar cane to the refinement process. The cane has sharp leaves that can leave a lot of cuts on your hands, you often had to deal with insects and other pests who also liked the sugar cane, you had diseases like malaria to worry about, and even once you harvest the cane the working conditions in the boiling houses were absolutely brutal. Keep in mind that the slave owners for these sugar plantations made the deliberate decision to work their slaves to death becaues it was cheaper than providing care or decent working conditions.
 

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Kaodi

Hero
Realize that some versions of Western racialism- particularly the one intertwined with the transatlantic slave trade- go beyond treatment of “them” as lesser humans, but rather, as subhuman. That’s a crucial distinction.

I am not sure I understand your meaning. In the modern context calling some a lesser form of humanity seems to be about as deadly an insult as calling them subhuman; such that "sub-human" just means "sub-full-human" ?
 

Minion X

Explorer
It is true that all societies have at least one “us” Vs “them” distinction, many of which are used to justify discrimination and bigotry. This is yet another trivial truth.
Realize that some versions of Western racialism- particularly the one intertwined with the transatlantic slave trade- go beyond treatment of “them” as lesser humans, but rather, as subhuman. That’s a crucial distinction. Remember, contemporaneous accounts by pro-slavery writers considered enslavement an elevating experience for their slaves, a sentiment echoed by certain modern apologists. The inherent inferiority of nonwhites was so apparent to some that it’s enshrined in American constitutional law: The Insular Cases- still in effect today.*
* The Insular Cases are a major reason my grandmother refused to travel to Puerto Rico with her husband to give birth in his family’s estates, choosing instead to remain in NOLA, ensuring my Mom would have full American citizenship, as opposed to the limited form granted to those born in that territory.
I don't think the Teutonic Knights considered the pagan Prussians and Lithuanians to be anything but sub-human, and the former were largely displaced or exterminated and replaced with German colonists in the European Crusades. I also cited some other examples, like the casteless of India or the burakumin in Japan who are still to this day literally considered lesser by the rest of their societies. You also have places like the Congo where pygmies are cannibalized by militants of other ethnic groups as a show of contempt since they consider the pygmies to be on par with other bushmeat. In the case of Western racialism, this concept was married to the burgeouning field of scientific thought and took on an industrial level of efficiency in exploitation and oppression, kind of like how war was nothing new but the sheer scale of destruction of Word War II gave everyone pause.
 

Hussar

Legend
Like we whitewash and trivialize violence? Many of our games incentivize us to be violent by giving us experience points and treasure for killing other living beings. I know, you don't have to play the game that way, but some people might play the game that way and that's a problem. Most role playing games, certainly D&D, revolve around violence. They make light of and trivialize a very serious and dark side of humanity that many millions of people have direct experience with. And yet we're okay with that apparently. Just by being included in a game, Vampire the Masquerade trivilizes sexual assault, addiction, abuse, and human trafficking.

I honestly don't get why it's okay to include some problematic aspects and not others. And I'm just going to have to be fine with not getting it. As Lo Pan once told me, I was not put on this Earth to "get it."
Again, you keep bringing up this slippery slope argument.

But, it's okay that you don't get it. You don't have to get it. It's absolutely not importatant that you get it. What you do have to understand is that yes, there is a difference. People can and will treat slavery and violence differently. Just accept that as a truth and move on instead of endlessly trying to "get it" when it's been explained to you over and over and over again.

And, I would point out that Vampire The Gathering has been repeatedly criticized for its treatment of issues like sexual assault and whatnot. For very, very good reason.
 

A history professor whose lecture I attended described it as Latin America and the Caribbean having a scale of blackness and whiteness, as evidenced by historical personages like Thomas-Alexandre Dumas and Joseph Bologne, whereas the US quickly developed its black-and-white "one drop does it" policy. Of course, that might have had something to do with the relevant parts of the US being largely English and French, while Spain and Portugal were already used to dealing with greater ethnic diversity in the wake of the reconquista and the reintegration of the Visigothic kingdoms with the Muslim caliphates.
And once the supply of new slaves from Africa was strangled by the European powers, the economic incentives for slavery in the Americas should have disappeared since its really not economical to raise new generations of slaves compared to obtaining working-age adults. Instead it seemed to morph into something resembling contemporary Russian serfdom where a small elite of large landowners used slaves to out-compete free smallholders, but kept the latter from turning against slavery by encouraging a racialist society where even the poorest white person could take some small comfort in technically being socially superior to black people, even if this system worked to keep them impoverished (in the style of Rome once it started to expand).

South American slavery went very deep into religion and patriarchal relationships. It's different from American slavery in some respects, but ultimately the racial fallout from it is something that continues on today.

Like we whitewash and trivialize violence? Many of our games incentivize us to be violent by giving us experience points and treasure for killing other living beings. I know, you don't have to play the game that way, but some people might play the game that way and that's a problem. Most role playing games, certainly D&D, revolve around violence. They make light of and trivialize a very serious and dark side of humanity that many millions of people have direct experience with. And yet we're okay with that apparently. Just by being included in a game, Vampire the Masquerade trivilizes sexual assault, addiction, abuse, and human trafficking.

I honestly don't get why it's okay to include some problematic aspects and not others. And I'm just going to have to be fine with not getting it. As Lo Pan once told me, I was not put on this Earth to "get it."

This whole idea always ignores that certain kinds of violence are seen as acceptable and laudable: heroes defeating villains, stopping injustice, etc. We can justify using those kinds of violence and whitewashing the results because, as players, we understand our motivations and our reasons.

However, there are kinds of violence that are not in games all the time because there are no good reasons for them: sexual violence, domestic violence, violence against minors, etc... You don't see these whitewashed or used because there's just no acceptable justification for them, hence why they are generally not used in games that aren't going to put their usage and damage front and center.

In the case of slavery, there's no acceptable reason for it, and along with that it has an impact on a smaller, more vulnerable population of players who have to deal with the fallout of that in their lives every day. They don't want to see it used trivially, used as a side quest generation system, or as a tag to say "This dude is evil!" It's not even an easy thing to show off in a game because so much of the destruction of slavery is long-term and broad that it's hard to get an accurate idea of it without engaging with it deeply.
 

Minion X

Explorer
Keep in mind that the slave owners for these sugar plantations made the deliberate decision to work their slaves to death becaues it was cheaper than providing care or decent working conditions.
I'm pretty sure that large-scale plantation slavery is only really profitable if you have a steady supply of working-age adults that you can ruthlessly exploit until they drop dead. Incidentally, there were sugarcane plantations around the Mediterranean before the industry moved to the Americas. They were mostly worked by Slavic slaves imported from East Europe and many were run by Italian city-states like Genoa.
 

MGibster

Legend
But, it's okay that you don't get it. You don't have to get it. It's absolutely not importatant that you get it. What you do have to understand is that yes, there is a difference. People can and will treat slavery and violence differently. Just accept that as a truth and move on instead of endlessly trying to "get it" when it's been explained to you over and over and over again.
I'm going to push back the idea that something shouldn't be included just because some people don't like it. I don't have to "get it" for that.

And, I would point out that Vampire The Gathering has been repeatedly criticized for its treatment of issues like sexual assault and whatnot. For very, very good reason.
And I haven't seen a lot of people argue that games shouldn't deal with those subjects. I'm not against criticism.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
There are multiple justifications, but with regard to the context of presenting it from a standpoint of world-building, the justification is verisimilitude. Simply put, there's a point where all of the underlying factors that should result in institutionalized slavery are present, and so its not being there becomes noticeable enough that it impinges on suspension of disbelief.

For most fantasy role-playing games, the presence of a medieval (European) culture is presented as a pastiche rather than any sort of serious historical work. That said, part of that pastiche involves certain aspects of the cultural development of the societies involves, which includes a marked lack of civil infrastructure and social support networks. The result is that it's taken as self-evident that such societies necessarily involve their people living under a greater degree of threat, not only from monsters, criminal elements, and other mayhem, but also from what we'd describe (for the sake of convenience) as ill-fortune, such as sicknesses, poverty, famine, etc.

That's important to take into account, because even in settings with semi-ubiquitous magic, interventionist deities, and all sorts of lifeforms, it's virtually always understood that none of these undercut the aforementioned medieval pastiche in any meaningful way. Specifically, scarcity is still an economic reality in the context of the game world, as is natural selection and other forms of Darwinism.

The result is that all of the reasons for enacting slavery are present, and most of the controls which would be able to prevent slavery's institutionalization are either lacking or anemic. A pseudo-medieval world, where survival is still a very real struggle for most of the background characters who make up the setting, is likely either not going to have organizations dedicated to protecting human (or rather, sapient) rights, or if such groups do exist, they're simply not going to have the level of outreach and authority necessary to protect those rights on any sort of pervasive scale.

Meanwhile, there's going to be villainous groups who do have the means, motive, and opportunity to enact slavery, since a workforce which you don't need to pay is a self-evident economic boon, even if it's morally repugnant, and that boon helps immunize them from the aforementioned threats that people in that society live under. The possibility of a slave uprising is likewise fairly easy to control if you keep the slaves oppressed (which goes with them being slaves), and is likewise not going to be a risk that outweighs the benefit(s) of having an oppressed class. And that's without issues of how it obviates the need for jails if you use slavery as a punishment for (alleged) criminal activity, or engaging in genocide if you conquer an enemy in a war, etc. Slavery is morally abhorrent, but if evil people don't care about the moral aspect, it has a lot of pragmatic dimensions to it.

So assuming the setting isn't a utopia, slavery's absence can be fairly stark.

And that's not even getting into the fantastical aspects of it. If we assume that evil deities have a vested interest in people doing evil things, then at least some of them should have slavery as an aspect of their religious portfolio. Devils and other corruptive influences will also push that idea. Magic makes such things possible as well, once you start looking into perpetual charm magic, etc.

There's no reason why slavery has to be present in a setting. But how you present the setting necessarily opens it up to questions about its internal logic and self-consistency, which means that if you have all of the underlying ingredients there, it becomes odd that nowhere has anyone put two and two together. If we take it as a given that people want to interrogate how their settings work, because a greater understanding of them is more enjoyable, then laying all of the framework for slavery, even inadvertently, and then having it not present is something that people who enjoy world-building are going to notice and comment on.

It feels to me like the groundwork would have to be pretty obvious and someone would almost have to be going out of their way looking for it in order for it to be clearly needed unless it was set up as a clear analogue to someplace in the realm world that had it.

Noticing it before all the technological, religious, gender, biology, physics things that are probably missing feels odd in the same way to me.

YMObviouslyV
 
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I'm going to push back the idea that something shouldn't be included just because some people don't like it. I don't have to "get it" for that.

It's not that some people "don't like it", but that it is an issue that specifically affects certain minority groups who feel that it trivializes something that still has effects on our modern society today. And it's not that it shouldn't necessarily be included, but it should be used with thought instead of a checkmark box on the "Build-a-World" page.

And I haven't seen a lot of people argue that games shouldn't deal with those subjects. I'm not against criticism.

And yet what is being done here if not criticism? People are making the point that slavery shouldn't be trivialized, reduced and relegated to set-dressing for a setting, and yet we have threads about how this is stifling and scaring creators. People don't say the same thing for not including stuff like sexual violence, and I suspect it's because that's an issue that doesn't just affect minorities, while the ramifications for slavery and colonialism do (along with the fact that, for a long time, such things were valued and lauded, particularly the latter).
 

Scribe

Legend
And yet what is being done here if not criticism?

Thing is, the criticism has, seemingly, lead to the removal of slavery from PF, and as a potential (among others) road block to Dark Sun being done again.

So its not that its criticism, but that its having an impact on how the settings, games, media, are being presented and where one sits on either side of the issue, that is either a good thing, or a bad thing, and its not likely difficult to slot folks into a position either way.

So, its not the criticism, but the effectiveness of that criticism on, lets call it changing, the products.

If one agrees with the direction? Job done.
If one disagrees with the direction? Its unnecessary and a negative.

Thats all this reeeeeeeeeeeeally boils down to, and its highly unlikely anyone will shift.

We could take a 30000 foot view on a number of these things, and see the shift taking place, but people seemingly dont like to do that either.
 

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