The Last of Us (HBO Max)

[Gradine]

I think there's a lot more nuance to the decision than just "Joel choosing Ellie over humanity".

In the game it's a lot more ambiguous as to whether their surgery on Ellie is going to work or not. It might reveal something that might lead to a cure. There's definitely a sense of hope there, but it's a lot less clear cut than "We have a doctor ready to synthesize a cure here."

And there's more. First... is this necessary to save humanity? Sure, FEDRA's borking things up left and right, but you've got a flourishing commune in Wyoming that's doing just fine, to say nothing of the show's addition of the Due North reunion and their rendition of Frank and Bill living a rich full life. Cordyceps is dangerous and destructive, but life has moved on. Yes, it would help people, and yes, Ellie would 100% do it, but the question of "Is it worth it?" is a worthy one; especially since they didn't actually give Ellie the choice. It's the trolley problem, which is a moral quandary for a reason.

And there's more. More importantly... is saving humanity good? One of the most incredible and unique things The Last of Us did as a post-apocalyptic game? Color. Most post-apocalytpic games are awash in browns and greys. The Last of Us, meanwhile, is green. Verdant, beautiful nature overtaking destructive cities. The giraffes aren't just there for the cute moment (or to give lifelong nightmares because you never knew giraffe tongues did that). Humanity isn't doing so hot, but the Earth? It's doing just fine. Great, even. And most of the humans that are surviving aren't exactly... great, you know? Raiders? Cannibals? The Committee for Public Safety Kansas City Edition? Hell, Joel?

In the end, as a parent of a young daughter myself, it was an easy to sympathize with the choice.



Spoilers for the sequel:

Spoiler: Seriously, These are Spoilers

Then the second game comes along and is like "Did you know an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind? Bet you never heard that one before. Bet you thought we were gonna be like 'Yeah revenge is cool actually.' Well you're wrong. We're so clever."

 

[payn]

Damn fine series and game adaption. I loved a couple changes/additions, and disliked a few too. Overall it was fantastic. I can’t wait for season two.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

After sleeping on it, I have more thoughts:

1) None of the adults had the courage to just ask Ellie for themselves. While she should be furious with Joel, she should be furious with all of them. If Marlene was sure she was doing the right thing with Ellie and that Ellie would agree, why wouldn't she ask this child she's known since birth what she chose to do?

2) That said, what is the cure they're proposing? Take the fungus out of Ellie's brain and do what with it, exactly? Serve it as lunch? Grow it in a non-existent lab? Synthesize whatever chemical it might or might not be producing, assuming the "cure" isn't "well, you've got to have this happen to you as a baby?" OK, great, then what? Who has the infrastructure to even distribute it throughout the United States, to say nothing of the planet? It feels very much like interesting news, learned far too late to matter.

3) It is super cool that they are giving voice actors from the original game a chance to strut their stuff on screen, in what is likely their highest profile non-game roles ever. It wasn't something they were legally obligated to do (I don't think), it wasn't morally required and only a portion of the audience would have even noticed. A classy move to have them there.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think there's a lot more nuance to the decision than just "Joel choosing Ellie over humanity".

In the game it's a lot more ambiguous as to whether their surgery on Ellie is going to work or not. It might reveal something that might lead to a cure. There's definitely a sense of hope there, but it's a lot less clear cut than "We have a doctor ready to synthesize a cure here."

In the game you literally find an audio recording from the doctor where he states he's ready to synthesize a cure.

April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.​

​

We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain. ​

Surgeon's recorder

It's not a certainty she's the cure, but it's likely she at least advances the search for one drastically.

What is next to certain is that Ellies sacrifice would likely brings humanity a lot closer to a cure than does killing the very doctor (and likely only person on Earth) who has the above specialized knowledge.

And there's more. First... is this necessary to save humanity?

Save them from the Zombie apocalypse yes.

I mean the vaccine literally stops you from turning into an infected. Meaning the Cordyceps loses its future hosts permanently, leaving the fungus on borrowed time and on a pathway to future extinction (not to mention making their bites go from 'always lethal' to 'painful') and saving literally countless millions of lives going forwards.

Yes, it would help people, and yes, Ellie would 100% do it, but the question of "Is it worth it?" is a worthy one; especially since they didn't actually give Ellie the choice. It's the trolley problem, which is a moral quandary for a reason.

Agree with the 'giving Ellie a choice'. Both Joel and Marlene are guilty of that crime (depriving her of her agency).

But the kicker is that when Marlene told Joel that 'Ellie would have wanted this' even Joel clearly seems to silently agree with her (as do you above). He knows it's what she would have wanted, but he doesnt care because he refuses to lose her. He doesnt care he dooms the world, because he refuses to lose her. He doesnt care he commits multiple cold blooded murders because he refuses to lose her.

While both made selfish decisions, at least Marlene was making hers in the way we're all pretty sure Ellie would have made for herself.

And there's more. More importantly... is saving humanity good?

It's a lot 'Gooder' than going on a mass shooting spree and murdering a bunch of people, that's for sure.

In the end, as a parent of a young daughter myself, it was an easy to sympathize with the choice.

In testing most parents saw Joels actions as justified.

I sympathize with him, but he's a mass shooter and a cold-blooded murderer, who potentially doomed millions of human beings to an agonizing death for what was ultimately a selfish choice (he knew it was what Ellie herself wanted).

 

[Flamestrike]

After sleeping on it, I have more thoughts:

1) None of the adults had the courage to just ask Ellie for themselves. While she should be furious with Joel, she should be furious with all of them. If Marlene was sure she was doing the right thing with Ellie and that Ellie would agree, why wouldn't she ask this child she's known since birth what she chose to do?

To spare her the pain and anguish of making it. Marlene told Joel this directly.

2) That said, what is the cure they're proposing? Take the fungus out of Ellie's brain and do what with it, exactly?

Not really explained in any detail but it has something to do with the fact the Fungus in Ellie does not turn her into a rage fueled monster, and also stops her from turning into one when bitten by other infected.

In the game, a recording from the Surgeon mentions the 'limbic regions of her brain' so that's likely where they think something is going on.

3) It is super cool that they are giving voice actors from the original game a chance to strut their stuff on screen, in what is likely their highest profile non-game roles ever. It wasn't necessary, it wasn't required and only a portion of the audience would have even noticed. A classy move to have them there.

Without any spoilers, if you played the second game, the 'other protagonist' from it has a cameo as one of the two nurses in the surgery room.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

To spare her the pain and anguish of making it. Marlene told Joel this directly.

I understand that. You know who else makes that kind of argument? Monsters throughout human history. Taking away someone's freedom "for their own good" is a monstrous act.

Not really explained in any detail but it has something to do with the fact the Fungus in Ellie does not turn her into a rage fueled monster, and also stops her from turning into one when bitten by other infected.

Yes, everyone watching the show got that part.

But if the best hospital in America is basically an empty wreck with most of it non-functional (raising some real questions about sterility, among other issues), where is this lab work going to take place? Where are the clean rooms where they'll synthesize a cure, assuming one is found? How will they broadcast what they've got? How will they stop raiders from killing them before they ever get going?

The Fireflies needed this hope to keep them going, but this is a wildly unlikely scenario for a cure, at best. And the fact that Marlene doesn't open it up to any debate suggests she probably knows it.

What Joel did was terrible and wrong, but the Fireflies aren't exactly spotless here.

 

[Vael]

I just don't think the probability of a cure or Ellie's wishes were much of a factor in Joel's decision making.

And, I get that the Fireflies are desperate. This is the fourth base of theirs we've seen, and the other three have failed. They've failed to make headway against FEDRA and they were so low on resources they had a teenager making bombs for them. This is an organization on the ropes and they know it.

 

[Flamestrike]

I understand that. You know who else makes that kind of argument? Monsters throughout human history. Taking away someone's freedom "for their own good" is a monstrous act.

I agree and I said as much above.

I'm not sure I can place her 'evil' (depriving Ellie of making a choice that she would almost certainly have made herself anyway, and killing Ellie, in order to save humanity) on the same scale as Joels (depriving Ellie of making the sacrifice she would have made, instead saving her life, and in the process engaging in mass cold blooded murder via a mass shooting spree, and potentially dooming millions to an agonizing death).

In RPG terms, Marleene is a Good aligned hero who makes a single probably Evil choice to deprive Ellie of her agency in order to save humanity, whereas Joel is an Evilly aligned Hero, who genuinely cares deeply about Ellie, and yet is prepared to lie to her, also deprive her of her agency, murder scores of people, and potentially doom all of humanity for ultimately selfish reasons.

But if the best hospital in America is basically an empty wreck with most of it non-functional (raising some real questions about sterility, among other issues), where is this lab work going to take place? Where are the clean rooms where they'll synthesize a cure, assuming one is found? How will they broadcast what they've got? How will they stop raiders from killing them before they ever get going?

They moved all the medical supplies to that one central location and had been preparing for some time. I'm sure they could have synthesized a lot of what they needed. I mean, they had electricity, so UV sterilization and refrigeration were still things as was all the equipment in the hospital.

What Joel did was terrible and wrong, but the Fireflies aren't exactly spotless here.

Im not saying they are squeaky clean. But on a scale of moral culpability, they are not approaching 'engage in a mass shooting and potentially lock humanity to the Zombie apocalypse in perpetuity dooming millions' levels of moral culpability, are they?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They moved all the medical supplies to that one central location and had been preparing for some time. I'm sure they could have synthesized a lot of what they needed. I mean, they had electricity, so UV sterilization and refrigeration were still things as was all the equipment in the hospital.

Synthesizing a cure -- if there even is a cure, which seems extremely optimistic (we know how HIV works and it's taken decades to get as close as we have to a vaccine, with many more resources poured into it than they can in Last of US , even counting the dismal initial efforts in fighting AIDS in the 1980s) -- requires a lot more than what we see in and around that hospital. It's an incredibly fragile and resource-intensive process, including needing a ton of highly trained human beings, most of which have been eaten long before Joel starts shooting the remaining ones.

Let's pretend there are still one million people living in what used to be the United States. Assuming there is a cure and that they can synthesize it, at best, they can maybe cure the survivors Salt Lake City. Which functionally makes them about as well off as the folks in Wyoming, since they can still die to starvation, raiders or getting attacked by infected.

It will take decades, maybe longer, to build up the infrastructure needed to create the resources for more antidote than than that. (And what Ellie has in her body is a vaccine, which may or may not work as a cure -- it didn't when she tried it in her lo-fi way.)

I wouldn't give the folks in Wyoming great odds of being around in decades, and they're not located on a major highway across a landscape that's clear most of the year. People won't stop coming to Salt Lake City, which just increases the odds that it'll eventually be overrun.

The choice isn't between killing Ellie and a cure. It's a choice between killing Ellie and a remote possibility of a cure.

 

[payn]

The choice isn't between killing Ellie and a cure. It's a choice between killing Ellie and a remote possibility of a cure.

After all the Firefly’s been through I don’t blame them for trying. After everything Joel has been through I don’t blame him either. It’s an interesting dilemma.