D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[MGibster]

My point is it doesn't have to be a commentary on the real world, and that racism in a fictional setting, isn't an endorsement of real world racism

I get it and I disagree vehemently with the first part. I agree it's not an endorsement, but I think it has something to say about the real world.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

WotC pretty much admitted that they're not willing to handle morally troublesome content anymore when they said they had no plans for a Dark Sun setting... for those exact reasons.

A lot of 'children's show' stuff is actually pretty darn mature.

Avatar was amazing for that. It was willing to handle numerous mature topics without ever glorifying them.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Endorsement; weird, unsettling affinity to see played out time and time again, tomayto, tomahto.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You're not getting it. You can write a race to be the "outsider" race without making it so that the core books say they invite discrimination. You can emphasize that they have an ability to see things from both parent's point of view or that they often have tastes or interests that are different enough from their peers that they don't necessarily connect, all without also saying "people hate or look down on them." And/or you can write that elves or whatever are prone to bigotry in the description of the elves.

One thing I will say is I agree if the half elf entry includes mention of Elven bigotry towards them, something about that should also appear in the Elf entry (it's potentially confusing otherwise). So as a matter of clear and good writing, I do agree on that point. I think the other point isn't something I am not understanding. I just think what people like about half elves is they tend to face, at the very least, a different reaction than other races. Again it loads one type with that particular tendency in the settings. You could easily do half elves another way. And I think being able to see two points of view is good flavor. But I also think for many people you are going to lose something that has worked and made them appealing.

All that said, I think this is a fairly flexible part of the discussion. There is something to be said for stripping down some of the flavor in favor of brevity (and a lot of other aspects of the game can do the heavy lifting there like spells, monster entries and magic items). But if you are going to have flavor, this seems like good, time tested flavor to have. I get that you can do half elves without the bigotry they face being in the entry. I think if you are going to describe them in any kind of detail, that adds a lot to the choice (and it makes them a stark choice to humans and elves).

I say this as someone who prefers tieflings and half-elves for their outsider nature, in large part due to my neurodivergence and (a)sexuality. But the reasons why I'm an outsider isn't because of those factors; it's because of other ,"normal" people who can't handle me being different. The blame isn't on me or on half-whatevers for being different; it's on the other people for not being more understanding. The same would be true if I were a different ethnicity. This is the important difference. If you, for whatever reason, need that bigotry there, then the bigotry should be squarely on the shoulders of the bigots, not on the victims of their bigotry.

And I think for the most part it is. I mean the half elf entry in 2E that I quoted mentions that they face a range of reactions from outright bigotry to fascination, and it is suggested that they aren't as accepted by elves themselves. That isn't on the half elf, that is on the elves, but including that in the half elf entry isn't a judgment on the half elves. And I think very importantly, whatever the half elf entry includes and whatever judgments there seem to be about them or any of the other races, aren't judgments being made about people in the real world with things that have caused them to feel like outsiders. I totally get not feeling accepted by people. I was definitely an outsider growing up. But I don't want my stories and RPGs that deal with outsiders to water down the flavor or dance on eggshells to avoid upsetting me. I can read these things and understand they aren't directing any judgement or hostility towards me.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I get it and I disagree vehemently with the first part. I agree it's not an endorsement, but I think it has something to say about the real world.

I think this probably boils down to whether one subscribes to all art is political as an idea. Maybe that isn't the case, so if you don't feel that way, definitely feel free to correct me and point to the nuance of your point that I am missing. I can appreciate why people feel this way. I just never accepted that assumption about art, entertainment and media. And I think oftentimes when media gets condemned for treading on real world issues in a way people don't like, it is due to misunderstanding. So my feeling on this is you can include racism in a game and it doesn't necessarily say anything about the real world. Obviously people can find some kind of subjective meaning it. But I think once you go past that, you quickly start getting into esoteric searches for the subliminal

 

[Remathilis]

WotC pretty much admitted that they're not willing to handle morally troublesome content anymore when they said they had no plans for a Dark Sun setting... for those exact reasons.

And to be fair, that IS their prerogative. They aren't obligated to have the game comment on every or any social issue. They probably feel they have a better chance with avoiding said issues than confronting them, and if their handling of hadozee and Vistani are any indication, they're probably right.

 

[Scribe]

Avatar was amazing for that. It was willing to handle numerous mature topics without ever glorifying them.

Other forms of media and entertainment are seemingly able to do this, RPGs, especially WotC version, seemingly 'cannot' or 'should not'.

 

[Faolyn]

One thing I will say is I agree if the half elf entry includes mention of Elven bigotry towards them, something about that should also appear in the Elf entry (it's potentially confusing otherwise). So as a matter of clear and good writing, I do agree on that point. I think the other point isn't something I am not understanding. I just think what people like about half elves is they tend to face, at the very least, a different reaction than other races. Again it loads one type with that particular tendency in the settings. You could easily do half elves another way. And I think being able to see two points of view is good flavor. But I also think for many people you are going to lose something that has worked and made them appealing.

I really don't agree here. I think people who need to have their character be victimized like that will do that anyway, and I think more games will benefit from not having discrimination be the standard.

And I think for the most part it is. I mean the half elf entry in 2E that I quoted mentions that they face a range of reactions from outright bigotry to fascination, and it is suggested that they aren't as accepted by elves themselves. That isn't on the half elf, that is on the elves, but including that in the half elf entry isn't a judgment on the half elves. And I think very importantly, whatever the half elf entry includes and whatever judgments there seem to be about them or any of the other races, aren't judgments being made about people in the real world with things that have caused them to feel like outsiders. I totally get not feeling accepted by people. I was definitely an outsider growing up. But I don't want my stories and RPGs that deal with outsiders to water down the flavor or dance on eggshells to avoid upsetting me. I can read these things and understand they aren't directing any judgement or hostility towards me.

It is a judgement on the half-elves, by omission, because it's not saying "elves are bigots." Why do half-elves suffer discrimination? Because they're half-elves, that's why. If the reason why people don't like half-elves is because half-elf biology forces them to, say, eat the still-beating hearts of children to survive, then that's a useful thing to know. But "aren't liked by other people because those people are bigots" isn't a useful description. If half-elf hair was described as "not brown," that doesn't tell you what it is, just what it isn't.

 

[MGibster]

I think this probably boils down to whether one subscribes to all art is political as an idea. Maybe that isn't the case, so if you don't feel that way, definitely feel free to correct me and point to the nuance of your point that I am missing. I can appreciate why people feel this way. I just never accepted that assumption about art, entertainment and media.

When I say that art reflects reality I mean that it has something to say about the human condition. And sometimes the viewer can place meaning in a work of art that the original creator did not intend. The X-Men started out as an allegory for racism, but by the time the second movie came out in 2003 it was an allegory for homosexuality. Art that doesn't reflect reality is devoid of meaning. It's like a meal devoid of flavor; just ashes in your mouth.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I really don't agree here. I think people who need to have their character be victimized like that will do that anyway, and I think more games will benefit from not having discrimination be the standard.

Does mentioning that a PC may be subject to bigotry in some settings mean the same thing as it being the standard from your point of view? Because that mention is what I'm asking for.