D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Vaalingrade]

No, let's not.

No, I think I will because people keep doing it.

 

[Alzrius]

No, I think I will because people keep doing it.

Doing what? Saying something which we know to be factually correct? Because that doesn't mean "disingenuous" (to use the word you put forward in your previous post) by any measure.

Again, if you want to argue against the inclusion of Strength caps that differ for male and female characters, leave the science aspect out of it. You'll lose that particular argument (because it's not actually an argument at all) and you'll look bad doing it. Stick to why it's not good game design, and you'll probably do fine.

 

[MoonSong]

Of coure. If we didn’t we would all be happy to just remove mechanics from race entirely.

At this point I'd rather have that.

 

[MoonSong]

Again, if you want to argue against the inclusion of Strength caps that differ for male and female characters, leave the science aspect out of it. You'll lose that particular argument (because it's not actually an argument at all) and you'll look bad doing it. Stick to why it's not good game design, and you'll probably do fine.

My argument against that is the difference is there, but too small in the grand scheme of things to be worth modelling in the game. Particularly as these fantasy humans go ever beyond real human limits.

 

[Alzrius]

My argument against that is the difference is there, but too small in the grand scheme of things to be worth modelling in the game. Particularly as these fantasy humans go ever beyond real human limits.

Sure. That's an example of an argument which can be put forward and defended on its own merits.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again, I am not advocating calling groups of people savages. I am saying using it in a game for fictional people is different, and using it to describe people in other contexts is different (i.e. "He was a savage in the ring").

And I’m telling you that “different” or not isn’t the issue, the issue is that it is also bad.
Presenting the premise that it’s okay to describe people (yes, including fictional people) as savages because they live differently from our preferred model of civilized urbanized living, is a bad thing to do. It makes people uncomfortable and feel unwelcome in the space where this language is being used.

Again, I think people calling one another savage playfully is different. I also think plenty of well adjusted people have dark senses of humor and quote historically evil people all the time. I am not saying what he said in this case was a good thing. But just from my experience being a history student, people often form a dark sense of humor around very uncomfortable aspects of history (this is for instance why I think someone like Larry David--history major in college--has a lot of jokes about the holocaust and Nazis). And I am not advocating going around seriously quoting someone who advocated genocide. I am saying some people respond to that with humor. Whether that was what Gygax was doing or not, I have no idea. It could also have just been an insensitive remark

I am without sympathy for “dark” humor that relies on quoting genocidal mass murderers, even as someone who did stupid stuff like that as a teen. It certainly does Gygax any kind of benefit if the doubt from me.

Again, I don't think killing orc babies is good in game. But the game is fantasy and it is a game, so I also don't take what happens in it all that seriously. If a player is going around killing orc babies, probably not a campaign I am interested in, but I won't assume anything about their real world ethics based on that. I just think the ethical logic people bring to justify those actions by their characters makes very little sense

Why are we talking about judging people’s RL morals by what they do in game? seems like a different topic, to me.

I have a lot of trouble getting deeply concerned about a rhetorical tool. Especially if we are both in agreement that he didn't endorse the aforementioned quote.

I mean, I don’t give him that benefit of the doubt, actually, I just doubt he was that out there. He was, however, comfortable using real world genocide as a rhetorical tool to talk about his game. It makes his other thoughts on alignment, to me, completely useless, at the very least.

I hope you would continue to hold conversations here with me, as I do enjoy getting your perspective even if we disagree (and I think one thing the gaming community is losing as it fragments around these issues is exposing our ideas to criticisms from people who disagree-----which refines our perspectives even if we are not thoroughly chaining our minds). For me this isn't about a refusal to see something that is objectively true here.

It is that I just have some fundamental disagreements about how big a role changing language, rhetorical tools and media content should play in our lives. I don't think avoiding terms like savage (in the contexts I have describe) makes anyone more safe, and I think the constant vetting and changing of language and shifting of what is acceptable (which I think does happen naturally over time, but the past five or so years have moved at such a fast pace people feel like the rug is being pulled out from under them as they simply try to express ideas). Like I said before I think the end result isn't to make people safer but less safe because the more these kinds of things get applied to everything in the culture, the more it waters down what it means. If people complain that calling orcs savages is a problem because it is dehumanizing, they aren't going to be taken as seriously when they point to dehumanizing language with real world people. And we are already starting to see this problem emerge in the culture where it is harder and harder to call out real world racism because we have been so fixated on expanding the term racism to include so many other things (including things like evil orcs).

I’ve seen nothing to support this idea, anywhere or at any time, in my entire life. What? Call outs on racism aren’t taken as seriously because of the rise of open fascist sentiment over the last 20 years, especially the last 10. Because people parrot nazi propaganda on actual news network shows and get to keep having a show.

But because we also call our racism in fiction media!? Prove it?

That doesn't mean I want real people in the world to be unsafe. That is something that is very concerning to me. I just don't think this is improving the world the way people think it is. And these bright red lines people keep putting down over language and elf games, really makes it hard for people to have a conversation about difficult topics

If you feel you can't interact with me though, I can respect that

Idk man. I find this really disheartening.

 

[Horwath]

My argument against that is the difference is there, but too small in the grand scheme of things to be worth modelling in the game. Particularly as these fantasy humans go ever beyond real human limits.

This.

we should not put everything from real life into D&D, especially when it goes against character creation creativity.

But, we should say that some things in real life are truth, but are omitted from the game for various reasons.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I’ve seen nothing to support this idea, anywhere or at any time, in my entire life. What? Call outs on racism aren’t taken as seriously because of the rise of open fascist sentiment over the last 20 years, especially the last 10. Because people parrot nazi propaganda on actual news network shows and get to keep having a show.

But because we also call our racism in fiction media!? Prove it?

I think the evidence is all around us. This is challenging to get into without tackling real world politics but you see people effectively using the over use of this term as effective cover for actual racism all the time. I think the issue isn’t just media, though it often starts there. We have been very freely using the term racism as a label for people who are not racist, because the term has been expanding in the past five years. And there is very much a boy who cried wolf effect (which I think is apparent to anyone who honestly assesses the state of the culture). And I say this because so think racism and anti-semitism are pressing real world issues. I just don’t think the problem is evil orcs, dark humor, calling orc tribes savage or half elves. Quite the opposite I would say. I don’t doubt your sincerity here. I think you are coming from a place of genuine concern but I think we simply disagree on the source of the problem and where these solutions lead (I see them backfiring in a very troubling way)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Idk man. I find this really disheartening.

I am sorry if my words dishearten you. That isn’t my aim. I am trying to give my view of things clearly. But I like to think if this conversation were face to face it would retain more nuance and it wouldn’t be so disheartening. Again for what it is worth, I respect your posts and I believe you are coming from a good place. I just have arrived at different conclusions on how best to solve these problems (and I think getting deep into that is hard to do on forum posts). One of my concerns is the deep fragmentation of the hobby, even to the extent that people who may be 90 percent in agreement are at one another’s throat. That is why I expressed concern about drawing sharp lines. I think it is important for people to continue engaging one another

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the evidence is all around us. This is challenging to get into without tackling real world politics but you see people effectively using the over use of this term as effective cover for actual racism all the time.

They’ve done that since the 60’s, at least.

I think the issue isn’t just media, though it often starts there. We have been very freely using the term racism as a label for people who are not racist, because the term has been expanding in the past five years.

No, we have not. We describe behaviors and systems as racist, and a vocal but tiny contingent lose their minds because they’re too stupid (or pretend to be too stupid) to distinguish between “this thing you’ve done was racist and you should recognize that and do better” and “you’re a racist monster who shall be shunned!”

And there is very much a boy who cried wolf effect (which I think is apparent to anyone who honestly assesses the state of the culture). And I say this because so think racism and anti-semitism are pressing real world issues. I just don’t think the problem is evil orcs, dark humor, calling orc tribes savage or half elves. Quite the opposite I would say. I don’t doubt your sincerity here. I think you are coming from a place of genuine concern but I think we simply disagree on the source of the problem and where these solutions lead (I see them backfiring in a very troubling way)

This is well meaning, but ultimately it’s just tone-policing and telling people that if they get too rowdy they’ll lose the moderates.

We tried courting the moderates and being nice about this stuff, and the fascist came out into the sunlight, and who coulda guessed it, sunlight doesn’t disinfect after all it just helps things grow.