D&D General How much control do DMs need?

I read what you replied to a bit differently. While I agree players disengaged in that they don't care is a failure mode, players disengaging in that they for a period do not contribute do not need to be so. I as a player (and indeed to some extent DM) often prefer to just kick back and watch what craziness the other players come up with for extended periods of time. And I had one player that was hardly ever speaking unless prompted what combat action their character was doing, but was clearly enjoying themself and was happily meeting up to the game every week for years.

Such players as me and him might be considered "disengaged" in the same sense as a troop tactically withrawn from active battle is not "engaged" but are still keenly observing the situation for opportunities, and can change the dynamics of the battlefield by it's mere presence.

As far as I can see it is this type of players the claim was that a game where no creative responsibility is left to the players might work better than one that dictates that each player need to contribute into the creative meltingpot.
Hm! My take is that if a player is paying attention, they are engaged. If a player's turn comes up and they have to put their game of Candy Crush down, or just say grumpily "I cast magic missile" without looking at the situation (or both*), then it's a problem.

Was that player who had to be prompted for their combat action usually not ready with a combat action? If so, then I would say they were disengaged.

* I have actually seen a player like this.
 

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Hm! My take is that if a player is paying attention, they are engaged. If a player's turn comes up and they have to put their game of Candy Crush down, or just say grumpily "I cast magic missile" without looking at the situation (or both*), then it's a problem.

Was that player who had to be prompted for their combat action usually not ready with a combat action? If so, then I would say they were disengaged.

* I have actually seen a player like this.
Yes, I got the impression that was the meaning you put in the word "engaged", and fully agree that is a problem. What I tried to show was a type of player I still find consistent with what @Clint_L described while I assume you agree did not match what you had in mind when you thought you disagreed with him :)

Actually your question serves also well to illustrate the type of mindset that might be at play. From memory they had to be prompted mainly due to indecission. That is, they were keenly aware of the situation and the posibilities, but as their play mode was a more pasive one, being put on the spot of having to do something was somewhat awkward (this was also very low combat campaigns, so this wasn't common). It can also be added for balance that there were times he actively and independently contributed, and then it was usually cool and imaginative stuff.
 

@loverdrive @niklinna

On the lootboxes thing: I often posted, back when 4e D&D was still a thing to talk about, that 4e in many ways resembled a "free descriptor" RPG except that you have to pay WotC for their books which list all the descriptors for you in loving detail!

And on "what good is it being told what damage a sword does?" I agree with loverdrive. The editions that close this gap, in my view, are classic D&D (with rules for monsters-by-dungeon-level) and 4e D&D (with robust guidelines for XPs worth of encounters and treasure parcels per level). In 2nd ed AD&D, and as best I can tell 3E and 5e D&D, it's wide open.
 

I largely disagree with your conclusion. Disengaged D&D players ARE a failure mode. The game is doomed in that case unless those players leave or become engaged. Dungeon World OTOH at least naturally requires them to do something. Sure, maybe they will just implode, but the vast majority of people who are at the table, want to play. They just need to figure out how. DW is very straightforward, any person who can read and write is fully qualified to play. Not that I think it's super hard to play classic games either, but they can take some initiative on the player's part.
I agree that disengaged D&D players are not good, what I am arguing is that one thing the central narrative authority (i.e. DM) offers is that you only have to care about your character and not about the larger world-building and narrative to play. Because DMing is work, and not everyone wants to do it. My spouse, for example, very much enjoys our D&D sessions, but has flat out said many times that they have no interest in every running a game.

A game like Fiasco requires, IMO, more dedicated players. It's not hard to play conceptually at all, much easier than D&D, but it requires more willingness to take on that storytelling role. I think DW plays a lot like Monsterhearts, yeah? So, again, not hard to learn but I think requires more commitment to play. What am I saying? I'm having trouble expressing my core idea, which is basically that D&D can be fun with players who are into being story passengers. That's not the same as being disengaged.

@loverdrive I find the first example (Counterstrike) interesting because it is a video game, so it has to be tightly constrained - every option has to be programmed into the structure of the game. This is due to the limitations that the medium imposes. It seems to me that this is more analogous to a hyper-detailed boardgame. Everything you can do is determined by hard-coded rules.

But isn't the central difference between that and a TTRPG that the play space is the player's imaginations, which are (for all practical purposes) infinitely vaster? So no set of hard rules can cover every eventuality, especially when you start factoring magic and everything else. This is the main attraction of the TTRPG, isn't it - that it takes advantage of that immense play space?

One way around this is to keep the rules so basic that everything becomes storytelling and interpretation. Fiasco just has rules for story prompts but everything else is storytelling. Monsterhearts has rules that are slightly tighter, and you still make dice rolls, but still is mostly driven by narration. I like these games, but they are light on what @Snarf Zagyg has elsewhere called "crunchy gaminess."

Your criticism of D&D - that if it works it's because of a good DM - seems to me to be true of every TTRPG. Some of them focus more distributing the DM's job amongst the players, and I am personally finding that more enjoyable, thus this thread. I am experimenting with different ways to bring that structure into D&D. But there also seems to be an attraction to giving players quite a few rules to work their busy brains on. In Fiasco, problems are easily solved - you just say what happens and it happens. The challenge is in coming up with something fun and interesting that sparks the next person to build on the story. But games like D&D do a good job of allowing for storytelling space while also giving players more prescriptive (i.e. rules-governed) situations to solve.

I guess you absolutely should give most credit to the DM when you have a great D&D game, or any other TTRPG experience that has a referee. Isn't that just generally true? Aren't the games intentionally designed so the the quality of the game is largely up to the referees and players? Why is that bad design?

Edit: One thing that I want to continually re-emphasize is that my opinions on what is good or bad are just my opinions, and not meant as a criticism of what other people like or don't like. Personally, I have enjoyed just about every TTRPG that I have tried. I have some attachment to the D&D brand for nostalgia reasons, but mostly I play it a lot because of convenience and popularity. Dread is probably my favourite and I think the design is absolutely brilliant, but it just scratches me where I itch, so YVMV.
 
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No set of rules could cover everything we do in D&D while also being comprehensive. There may be systems for adjudicating things not explicitly covered under the rules but there will always be a "Can I swing from the chandelier" question now and then.

Whether the decision of whether said light fixture will support the character's weight while also allowing them to achieve their stated goal is left up to an individual or a committee, it's going to be something the rules don't cover. a
I'm saying that every game has a specific structure that is enforced somehow. If someone states something that is simply not possible given the current situation, someone has to call it out as impossible.
These two posts are not making the same point.

The first, with which I and @AbdulAlhazred disagreed, is making an assertion about the relationship between resolution rules and the scope of imaginable activity that characters might undertake. It asserts that there will always be a gap here. That claim is, in general, false. It's true for some versions of D&D. It's true for Classic Traveller (I can report from experience). It's false (I can also report from experience) for 4e D&D and Marvel Heroic RP. And AbdulAlhazred is reporting that it is false for Dungeon World.

What makes it true or false, and whether that is a problem for the design of a game where it's true, are interesting questions though maybe a bit off-topic for this thread. (Eg I still think Classic Traveller is a wonderful RPG, although it has gaps of this sort.)

The second post is asserting the trivial point that social rules aren't self-actualising, and need human beings to give effect to them. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
 

@loverdrive @niklinna

On the lootboxes thing: I often posted, back when 4e D&D was still a thing to talk about, that 4e in many ways resembled a "free descriptor" RPG except that you have to pay WotC for their books which list all the descriptors for you in loving detail!
I would 🤣 if it didn't make me want to :cry:. At least you also got a detailed, robust set of games rules with the descriptors?

And on "what good is it being told what damage a sword does?" I agree with loverdrive. The editions that close this gap, in my view, are classic D&D (with rules for monsters-by-dungeon-level) and 4e D&D (with robust guidelines for XPs worth of encounters and treasure parcels per level). In 2nd ed AD&D, and as best I can tell 3E and 5e D&D, it's wide open.
Afraid I still have to ask for clarification on sword damage. "1d8" is pretty clear to me, so I guess what's meant is, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of the Tootsie-Pop?" I mean, how many blows with said sword does it take to kill a <goblin, owlbear, griffin, wyvern, etc.>. Is that right?
 

I agree that disengaged D&D players are not good, what I am arguing is that one thing the central narrative authority (i.e. DM) offers is that you only have to care about your character and not about the larger world-building and narrative to play.

<snip>

But isn't the central difference between that and a TTRPG that the play space is the player's imaginations, which are (for all practical purposes) infinitely vaster?
There is a tension between these two things, isn't there? A player who only cares about their character doesn't seem to be working in an infinitely vast imaginative play space.

So no set of hard rules can cover every eventuality, especially when you start factoring magic and everything else. This is the main attraction of the TTRPG, isn't it - that it takes advantage of that immense play space?

One way around this is to keep the rules so basic that everything becomes storytelling and interpretation.

<snip>

Your criticism of D&D - that if it works it's because of a good DM - seems to me to be true of every TTRPG.
I'm not @loverdrive, but can give an example that I've posted about before: onworld exploration in Classic Traveller.

A few years ago, when I broke out my old black books and decided to try this game for the first time in about three decades, the first session was awesome. And we had these colourful PCs, one of whom could drive wheeled vehicles and one of them who was a vacc-suit trained jack-of-all-trades. And the session ended with the PCs in a domed city on a world with a corrosive atmosphere.

My idea was that I wanted a scene in which the PCs were out of the sphere, relying on their ATVs and their vacc suits to keep them alive.

A couple of sessions later I got to run that scene - the PCs left the dome to find an enemy base in an old, abandoned military installation beyond the dome. And at that point I discovered that Classic Traveller has no rules for resolving on-world exploration. I mean, it has stats for vehicles (mph, refuelling rates etc). And it has a rule for rolling per day for vehicle malfunction. But those are only meaningful if I as referee make a decision about how far away the base is, at which point the players aren't actually playing any game: we're just doing the (fairly simple) arithmetic of calculating the number of travel days, and then making the (fairly unexciting) malfunction rolls.

(This is the Traveller equivalent of @loverdrive's example of being told sword damage.)

It was not good play.

Anyway, here's a point of contrast: after finding and taking over the enemy base, the PCs came under assault from an enemy starship blasting the installation from orbit with its triple laser turret. So they decided to jump into their ATVs and escape the fire. Traveller has rules for a small craft evading and escaping starship fire, and I was easily able to adapt these for an ATV escaping orbital fire (substituting ATV/vehicle skill for small craft skill on the evader's side, while applying Forward Observer on the attacking side as a penalty). This was exciting, made more so because as the rolls to escape were being made, the players also made opposed rolls (using Communications skill, I think enhanced by Electronics and/or J-o-T) to intercept and block communications between the spotter and the orbiting starship, and to call in friendly reinforcements.

It was great play.

I was the same GM in both episodes (they happened within the span of a couple of months, from memory). The difference was that in one, the game did not deliver. And in the other it did.

A RPG does not need a resolution mechanic for everything: 4e D&D has one; Dungeon World doesn't. But a good RPG needs a satisfactory rule for everything. DW has one: if the player's declared action doesn't trigger a player-side move, the GM has to say something (as @loverdrive I think it was noted upthread) - and the design of the things the GM is encouraged to say and the player side moves means that, sooner or later, enough of the former will prompt some of the latter, and these will in turn feed back nicely into the former.

On-world exploration for Traveller, though, has no resolution mechanic and doesn't have a framework like DW. It just sucks. Since that episode our Traveller campaign has continued for many sessions, but I've made sure never to have onworld exploration be an element of play, because I know the game simply can't handle it. Which in my view is a weakness in a sci-fi RPG (and is in my view the only really big weakness I've found in Classic Traveller).
 

I would 🤣 if it didn't make me want to :cry:. At least you also got a detailed, robust set of games rules with the descriptors?
Sure. It's not a complaint. I reckon I spent around $1500 (Australian) on 4e books over the course of 4 or so years (2008 to 2012), but I knew what I was doing and I got good RPGing out of it.

By comparison, I've probably spent a few hundred on Burning Wheel, and maybe one hundred on Torchbear, and less on Prince Valiant. They're complete out of the box in a way that 4e isn't!

I don't know how Luke Crane makes his living, but I'm guessing it's not from selling RPGs. Whereas that's exactly how WotC stays in business!

Afraid I still have to ask for clarification on sword damage. "1d8" is pretty clear to me, so I guess what's meant is, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of the Tootsie-Pop?" I mean, how many blows with said sword does it take to kill a <goblin, owlbear, griffin, wyvern, etc.>. Is that right?
See my post just upthread about Classic Traveller onworld exploration.

If I know that I have an X% chance per day of a malfunction, but have no idea how many days I'll be operating my vehicle, then there's no real game there.

If I know my sword does d8 damage, but have no idea how much damage I have to inflict to win, then there's no real game there.

In both cases, it just becomes GM decision-making.
 

On-world exploration for Traveller, though, has no resolution mechanic and doesn't have a framework like DW. It just sucks. Since that episode our Traveller campaign has continued for many sessions, but I've made sure never to have onworld exploration be an element of play, because I know the game simply can't handle it. Which in my view is a weakness in a sci-fi RPG (and is in my view the only really big weakness I've found in Classic Traveller).
But hey, you could easily add one!
 

See my post just upthread about Classic Traveller onworld exploration.

If I know that I have an X% chance per day of a malfunction, but have no idea how many days I'll be operating my vehicle, then there's no real game there.

If I know my sword does d8 damage, but have no idea how much damage I have to inflict to win, then there's no real game there.

In both cases, it just becomes GM decision-making.
Yes that's pretty much what I was asking, thanks.
 

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