D&D General How much control do DMs need?

I know players who only want to explore, or at least that's their focus. They're not interested in contributing anything on the creating-things-to-explore side, and doing so can be detrimental to their suspension of disbelief (as others in this thread have reported.) They do want to contribute on the who-their-character-is and what-their-character-does side. Other participants (including trad GMs) typically pilfer from the former to create-things-to-explore which they will most likely be interested in. Meaning that they do end up contributing... which can extend to the ways that @Imaro describes. Like many things in TTRPG, cases in the domain are highly heterogenous.

More importantly I think different forms of creativity need to be acknowledged. While trad/exploration doesn't support the players creating the world... it does support creative solutions, creative expression through the actions, descriptions, etc. of their characters, creativity through interaction and so on. Now a GM may not value this type of creativity... but to me that just feels like a mis-match of playstyles.
 

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@pemerton, perhaps this is not the correct thread for this, but since you've already expressed within this thread that you do not enjoy exploring the DM's imagination I was wondering if you have ever enjoyed a computer game where essentially it is you being active (not passive like the enjoyment of a movie) but are exploring the designer's imagination and thus as player you have limited control?
I've never played computer games.

I enjoy Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks - though I haven't really had much time for them in the past two to three decades! - but that's as puzzles (I like putting my map together) moreso than just taking in the story (which is often not all that well-written)
 

I'm genuinely curious...How is any of this prep, it's already created? I'm not building the stats, or anything else you've listed just using them when I want or need them.
They're no different from modules, or dungeon geomorphs: they provide game elements that are necessary for play and that the GM would otherwise have to create. They play the same functional role as prep.

And of course Arneson and Gygax did prep them: the original MM and DMG lists are just lists of stuff that the ur-DMs prepped for their play. In some cases this is almost painfully obvious - eg the strange combinations of immunities and vulnerabilities of the various oozes, which are a manifestation of the crafty-GM-vs-clever-players "arms race" dynamic of early D&D.

The contrast with a RPG that doesn't need these sorts of lists - say, In A Wicked Age or Wuthering Heights for some really clear examples; but for something more "mainstream" Classic Traveller to a significant extent - is important. It tells us something about how D&D is intended to be approached, from both player and GM side, that all these lists are so prominent; and there absence from those other games equally tells us something about them.
 

They're no different from modules, or dungeon geomorphs: they provide game elements that are necessary for play and that the GM would otherwise have to create. They play the same functional role as prep.

And of course Arneson and Gygax did prep them: the original MM and DMG lists are just lists of stuff that the ur-DMs prepped for their play. In some cases this is almost painfully obvious - eg the strange combinations of immunities and vulnerabilities of the various oozes, which are a manifestation of the crafty-GM-vs-clever-players "arms race" dynamic of early D&D.

The contrast with a RPG that doesn't need these sorts of lists - say, In A Wicked Age or Wuthering Heights for some really clear examples; but for something more "mainstream" Classic Traveller to a significant extent - is important. It tells us something about how D&D is intended to be approached, from both player and GM side, that all these lists are so prominent; and there absence from those other games equally tells us something about them.

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm curious... so in In a Wicked Age or Wuthering Heights (I am not familiar with these games) how would a monster/antagonist or a magic item be represented? What about Traveler?

EDIT: Ok maybe I'm not understanding but are you saying the games above just don't have lists but essentially there is a mechanical representation of a monster/npc/antagonist in the same way D&D has one? If so I don't see the difference except in one they are giving you pre-made examples and in the other one they are not... since you can create monsters in D&D.
 
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Touching on what @Imaro and @clearstream have said, I too have a group of players who prefer building on their backgrounds but not so much on the setting, the latter area requires some nudging and pushing by me. They prefer the exploration aspect and to be surprised. However, despite that, I have borrowed a number of tools mentioned by the story now, no mythos posters here on Enworld from the various games they enjoy, either from mechanical descriptions here on the forum or looking up the details myself and have incorporated these techniques I'd say with some success within our campaign.

  • I have let them create several NPCs with whom they have relationships with (good, bad or neutral) within their primary city of residence.
  • We have used the flashback sequence in an adventure which dealt with heavier exploration and supplies. The gamists in the group loved this.
  • I've incorporated my own version of skill challenges on various extended tasks. And in some given them the freedom to be creative in the use of the skills by creating their own fiction on the spot.
  • I enjoy the success with a cost or complication result for skill checks.
  • Our table allows for players to narrate their kill-shots.
  • More than half of them have created a number of write-ups between sessions, expanding on the setting.
  • They gain 1 additional ideal/bond/flaw/trait for every 2 levels - which are important in earning Inspiration in order to level up in my campaign as we do not use XP.
  • We have used Fate points.
  • Say yes.
...etc

This level of freedom to incorporate new techniques into our campaign while still maintaining an overall traditional style seems to work for our table. The players are still within their comfort zone, they enjoy the twists and turns I bring and these nudges here and there which allow them to be creative are well received and within our capabilities.

My very next session, deals with the party being Banished from a dream demi-plane which functioned for a Mazed victim by the Lady of Pain. The way I've interpreted Banishment for this campaign, is that it takes you to your heart's desire.

So I asked each of them for things/places/persons each of their characters are strongly bonded to in order to prepare possible areas/situations they would be exploring. The players know these options will appear before their characters and they are to make a choice as to which they would gravitate towards but they are unaware of what each choice could mean. That they leave to the DM.
The cleric on the other hand will have his own choices before him as well as the difficulty in trying to direct them all towards the location that had a Word of Recall prepared, otherwise some or all of them may end up in some far off locales (depends on his skill check). I'm not sure, how we are going to deal with the latter if that occurs, but that is a problem for another time. :ROFLMAO:
 
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I've never played computer games.
I do not know why but I suspected as much.
I enjoy Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks - though I haven't really had much time for them in the past two to three decades! - but that's as puzzles (I like putting my map together) moreso than just taking in the story (which is often not all that well-written)
Funny enough I was thinking of including Fighting Fantasy/Lone Wolf but I decided against as it is not multiplayer (beside a few exceptions) whereas computer games are more so.
 

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm curious... so in In a Wicked Age or Wuthering Heights (I am not familiar with these games) how would a monster/antagonist or a magic item be represented? What about Traveler?
In Wuthering Heights, most opposition comes from within the character - given the sort of events and action with which it is concerned, generally to do something requires rolling above or below one's Rage or Despair. There are no canonical rules for statting out NPCs, but in our play when they were needed I (as GM) was just able to roll the dice to determine their Rage and/or Despair.

In the case of In A Wicked Age, all antagonists and protagonists are established at the opening of play, by drawing playing cards from a deck, then reading the results in the "Oracles" to identify the elements of the overall situation, then going around the table taking turns to identify character explicit or implicit in that situation. Once that's done, each player chooses one to be a PC, and the GM has the rest as NPCs. There are then rules for both players and GMs to stat up their characters, and the GM-side rules are designed in recognition of the fact that the GM has to do more in the same amount of time. There are also rules for establishing special abilities ("particular strengths") as part of the statting up process, which can include magic items. (In the last game I played one PC had a horse, one had chests of treasure, one was an illusionist, and a NPC had a magic spear.)

In Classic Traveller, NPCs can be rolled up using the PC generation rules. Alternatively, a GM can just assign a few appropriate skill ranks (and the encounter table has notes on how to do this). When it comes to (non-human) animal encounters, there are rules for determining what animals are like, that reflect various features of the world (eg gravity, atmospheric density, etc). Supplement 2 Animal Encounters is not a list of creatures like a Monster Manual; it's a list of encounter tables with the animals statted out on each line, thus saving the referee the work of preparing their own encounter tables. So it's a type of prep, but not a type of list.

Ok maybe I'm not understanding but are you saying the games above just don't have lists but essentially there is a mechanical representation of a monster/npc/antagonist in the same way D&D has one? If so I don't see the difference except in one they are giving you pre-made examples and in the other one they are not... since you can create monsters in D&D.
The presence of the lists in D&D plays a huge role in the overall play experience. It creates a particular vocabulary for describing and comparing play experiences ("We fought some kobolds"). It creates a framework for PC improvement ("I've got a sword +1 and Gauntlets of Ogre Power" or "I can cast a Sleep spell - can you?").

The use of maps, too - which can be prepped in the form of modules - does the same thing. "Have you played Keep on the Borderlands?" or "How did you guys handle the inverted ziggurat room in White Plume Mountain?"

Wuthering Heights, In A Wicked Age, Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, Prince Valiant - these RPGs won't produce this sort of experience. They're not designed to work around the sort of prep that the lists feed into, and that can therefore be satisfied by sharing the same lists and maps and keys around multiple groups of players.

At least in my view, if we're going to talk about the "toolbox" of D&D, or what features of D&D create a distinctive play experience, this is the sort of thing that will provide interesting material for investigation and explanation.
 

In Wuthering Heights, most opposition comes from within the character - given the sort of events and action with which it is concerned, generally to do something requires rolling above or below one's Rage or Despair. There are no canonical rules for statting out NPCs, but in our play when they were needed I (as GM) was just able to roll the dice to determine their Rage and/or Despair.

Okay so this one seems like it's no prep... at least what I'm understanding you to mean by it, and if I'm mistaken please let me know. That said...

In the case of In A Wicked Age, all antagonists and protagonists are established at the opening of play, by drawing playing cards from a deck, then reading the results in the "Oracles" to identify the elements of the overall situation, then going around the table taking turns to identify character explicit or implicit in that situation. Once that's done, each player chooses one to be a PC, and the GM has the rest as NPCs. There are then rules for both players and GMs to stat up their characters, and the GM-side rules are designed in recognition of the fact that the GM has to do more in the same amount of time. There are also rules for establishing special abilities ("particular strengths") as part of the statting up process, which can include magic items. (In the last game I played one PC had a horse, one had chests of treasure, one was an illusionist, and a NPC had a magic spear.)

In Classic Traveller, NPCs can be rolled up using the PC generation rules. Alternatively, a GM can just assign a few appropriate skill ranks (and the encounter table has notes on how to do this). When it comes to (non-human) animal encounters, there are rules for determining what animals are like, that reflect various features of the world (eg gravity, atmospheric density, etc). Supplement 2 Animal Encounters is not a list of creatures like a Monster Manual; it's a list of encounter tables with the animals statted out on each line, thus saving the referee the work of preparing their own encounter tables. So it's a type of prep, but not a type of list.

These 2 on the other hand seem similar to D&D in that the antagonists are prepped (using the rules of their respective systems). So I get the distinction drawn with the first example, but then these two examples muddy the waters for me.

The presence of the lists in D&D plays a huge role in the overall play experience. It creates a particular vocabulary for describing and comparing play experiences ("We fought some kobolds"). It creates a framework for PC improvement ("I've got a sword +1 and Gauntlets of Ogre Power" or "I can cast a Sleep spell - can you?").

But it doesn't. There are people, myself included, who have run games that don't feature a single kobold and, at least in 5e, magic items on as a whole are optional, so they can't serve as a framework for PC improvement. I think these lists serve no purpose but to present examples that can easily be used in ones game if you so choose.

The use of maps, too - which can be prepped in the form of modules - does the same thing. "Have you played Keep on the Borderlands?" or "How did you guys handle the inverted ziggurat room in White Plume Mountain?"

This may make me an oddball and an exception but I have never run an official D&D module. Never. I use them for inspiration, locations, new monsters but I don't run them. I think I may not be using prep in the same way you are. For me prep is work done by the DM/GM to facilitate the running of a game. If the DM/GM didn't have to create it I don't consider it

Wuthering Heights, In A Wicked Age, Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, Prince Valiant - these RPGs won't produce this sort of experience. They're not designed to work around the sort of prep that the lists feed into, and that can therefore be satisfied by sharing the same lists and maps and keys around multiple groups of players.

So both types of games require prep... it is the type of prep that you seem to be making a distinction around... but then I have to ask aren't there commonalities within the prep these games do use that would be possible to share. I've seen generic scenarios for Apocalypse World and DW on the internet (admittedly I haven't read them so they may be something different than what I assume a scenario is... but it still speaks to a commonality in prep), Can't oracles in In a Wicked Age be created and shared? Burning Wheel I'm not really familiar with and my understanding (from reading a review a while back) was that Prince Valiant contained pre-defined episodes.

At least in my view, if we're going to talk about the "toolbox" of D&D, or what features of D&D create a distinctive play experience, this is the sort of thing that will provide interesting material for investigation and explanation.

I don't think it really does though... since I would wager the number of homebrewers that play D&D vastly outnumber those who play official modules and even game in official settings. Theoretically focusing on this might offer something but for in the wild actual play, it seems misleading to focus on it.
 

@hawkeyefan I have been wondering about something you may have a view on. Let's say I don't care to learn what someone else imagined. As player 1 anything player 2 imagines is something that someone else imagined. Therefore I should not care for it. As player 1 anything that the game designer imagined is also something that someone else imagined. I shouldn't care for that either.

Following that line of thought, it seems to me that the benefits of sharing the job of imaginative contribution to the fiction are actually not that I should or should not care to learn what someone else imagined. That's beside the point. It's rather in view of other benefits. For example, perhaps for player 1 it's in view of getting their turn to contribute something to the fiction? Or perhaps it's something about shared authorship being more powerful than a sole auteur (in the past there have been cultural - perhaps patriarchal - assumptions that the opposite is true.)

What is uniquely detestable about GM's imagination, versus that of player or game designer? I suspect the answer is "nothing" leading to the questions I've posed. Above you've already touched on some possible benefits. I wondered also if you see authority over fiction and authority over system identically? And if there were elements of either that you'd treat differently, e.g. in order to respect the Czege Principle.

I personally don't mind if the bulk of creativity in a game is primarily the GM; I just want to know if that's the case so that I can align my expectations to the game. My preference overall is for their to be more player input, but that need not always be the case. I'm currently playing in a 5e campaign of Temple of Elemental Evil right now. The GM in that game is clearly the primary source of creativity. The players are responsible for choices in how to engage with the existing scenario, and by adding a bit of color in how we portray our characters.

So I don't think it's a case of considering someone else's imagination unenjoyable or anything like that. I think it's a matter of application.

To offer a bit of an example, I'm playing in the 5e Temple game mentioned above, and I'm playing in another game as well, which allows for a lot more player input, and is largely about the player characters rather than some predetermined plot. I absolutely love when the focus is on characters other than mine in that game because those moments tend to be exciting and tense... I want to find out how things are going to go for the character. There are stakes involved that make it interesting in the same way a book or movie might be. I want to know what happens.

In the Temple game, when the focus is on another character than mine, it's mostly just for them to make a decision. Once they've done that, we can move on. I don't mind people giving a bit of portrayal to their characters... some flavor that makes the Fighter seem unique in some way... I like that stuff. But it should be kept to a minimum. I think it easily goes into self-indulgence when it's nothing more than flavor. The game isn't about the characters... so spending a lot of time on character seems wasteful to me. It's not going to lead to much, so keep it short and focused.

Now, with a GM, I think the concern is that the more control the GM has... the more of the world and the situation that the GM is deciding... the less say the players have. So in games where I'm expecting or hoping to have more input, if the GM (or rules) don't allow me that space, then I'm going to be disappointed. I'd much rather they be up front about it and then I can adjust my expectations.

I think this is something that isn't always obvious to everyone here, especially when they almost always play on game and almost always are the GM and almost always play with the same people. When one's always the GM and it's for the same group of friends always playing the same game, you all kind of know what to expect, and so that default setting can become something that one assumes is true for the hobby in general. I know that I did this... I was almost always the GM for the same group of friends and we almost always played D&D... I didn't think that me or my group as exceptional in any way, so I figured most folks who played RPGs had a similar experience.
 

Can't every player be "exploring" what the other players are providing? That is, this again seems to be predicated on the notion that it is impossible to explore unless one, singular, other person has already perfectly nailed down everything to be explored, as Pemerton said. That seems a pretty narrow conception of "exploration"--almost to the point of circularity. Why is it impossible for the whole group to be collectively exploring together?
There's a rather large difference between exploring and inventing.

Exploring implies there's something already there to explore. Inventing implies there was nothing there and that it's being created - a.k.a. invented - at the same time it's discovered.
It seems perfectly reasonable that you "contribute" (and thus do not "explore") say, 10-15% of the world for each PC player, and the GM player contributes the remaining 25% to 50%. Everyone--including the GM!--is heavily or primarily exploring, and the players are overwhelmingly exploring. I don't see how the small amount of contributing nixes the feeling of exploration.
Sounds fine in principle; in practice I could see it running aground very quickly when two or more people at the table have conflicting visions for how the world should work, keeping in mind that what each player invents becomes global for that world (unless you want to spend all your time trying to explain why things work this way here and that way somewhere else). So, if for example I put a nation over here who is really big on trading, suddenly everyone else has to account for my traders and make them fit in whether they want to or not...or else there's an argument.

Never mind that some players just aren't interested in world design, or even in downtime activities where we interact with the setting in ways other than adventuring.
 

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