D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

Status
Not open for further replies.
None of my quotes come from a person, unless you mean the game designer that wrote it. They are the descriptions about how the race views other races. Are they put in quotes? Yes. That's because that's the general view of the race and they are writing it out as a quote. It's not simply one person's view. The section opens up with a general statement and then those quotes back that general statement up.

They are literally quoted.

Screenshot_20230424_133519_Chrome.jpg


Trying to act like they are not meant to be in-universe quotes seems to stretch credulity.

It was a D&D dwarf quote I mentioned, though, not Tolkien and not Norse. The D&D dwarf is described as greedy and that language is just as attributable to Jews as the Orc language is to other real world peoples. I'm not sure there is a negative statement that you can make about a fantasy race that isn't easily connectable to some real world race or culture.

You mentioned the Semitic reference to dwarves, which is actually something Tolkien did. Feels weird to try and bring it up out otherwi
 

log in or register to remove this ad

This looks like it is trending towards making the discussion personal.

Pease don't make it go further that way. Speak to what is written. Do not speak to the writer, please and thanks.
 

I never said anything about exoticism. Just about borrowing elements from real world culture for flavor.

I mean, that's what the subject/thread you were sort of quoting into.

The issue of exoticism and orientalist is I think a little complicated and nuanced gif this topic. I will say it is very easy to reduce ‘innacurate’ of ‘loosely based on’ to ‘exoticized’. But I don’t think they are the same thing. I would say we are very focused on authentic portrayals now, which makes sense if you are talking about a real world or historical setting. But there are no authentic orcs or authentic Red Wizards of Thay. These are fantasy cultural that draw on a range of real world influences

I don't really get what you are talking about here. Like, yes, they are fantasy cultures that may or may not draw upon real ones. The point is that certain ones (such as orcs) draw upon particular tropes in such a way as to be offensive. I understand a desire for nuance, but that seems to be a pretty straight shot, tbh.
 

It would be so much easier if we could just enhance the inhuman aspects of these groups, make them non-playable monsters again. But few designers seem willing to give that a try. For my part I'm still trying to understand what attracts people to orcs in the first place. Take all the LOTR stuff away and there's really nothing in my opinion that distinguishes them from humans outside of physical appearance. As I said above, I'm sure that's why they added super-strength to them in modern depictions.
 

It would be so much easier if we could just enhance the inhuman aspects of these groups, make them non-playable monsters again. But few designers seem willing to give that a try. For my part I'm still trying to understand what attracts people to orcs in the first place. Take all the LOTR stuff away and there's really nothing in my opinion that distinguishes them from humans outside of physical appearance. As I said above, I'm sure that's why they added super-strength to them in modern depictions.
If orcs just seem human to you, you may as well just have humans in your games. They've been available for players since 1989. The original D&D orcs were just tribal bullies who disliked bright light, which could just be humans with bad day vision.
 

The game STILL has half orcs and half elves. They haven’t been removed. The only difference between a 2014 half elf and the new one is two skill proficiencies.

Not really the case if you remove the mechanics, they are effectively removed.
 

It would be so much easier if we could just enhance the inhuman aspects of these groups, make them non-playable monsters again. But few designers seem willing to give that a try. For my part I'm still trying to understand what attracts people to orcs in the first place. Take all the LOTR stuff away and there's really nothing in my opinion that distinguishes them from humans outside of physical appearance. As I said above, I'm sure that's why they added super-strength to them in modern depictions.
We can't ignore their popularity in pop-culture. D&D, Warcraft, Warhammer, as well as other sources, each have done work to help Orcs shine under a new light outside of Tolkein's work. Some people like brutes with different perspectives on honor and spirituality. And they are an easily available species to represent wilderness clans that value strength and survival more than human/elf standards of beauty.
 

If orcs just seem human to you, you may as well just have humans in your games. They've been available for players since 1989. The original D&D orcs were just tribal bullies who disliked bright light, which could just be humans with bad day vision.
What makes them seem not human to you?
 

It would be so much easier if we could just enhance the inhuman aspects of these groups, make them non-playable monsters again. But few designers seem willing to give that a try. For my part I'm still trying to understand what attracts people to orcs in the first place. Take all the LOTR stuff away and there's really nothing in my opinion that distinguishes them from humans outside of physical appearance. As I said above, I'm sure that's why they added super-strength to them in modern depictions.

Maybe people want to tell stories that are human, but want to still be a step removed from just being human stories? You can tell personal stories about real world things without having it be too real for you. I know that tieflings are apparently popular in the LGBTQ+ community for that sort of reason.
 

Sure. But D&D is still going to have a species, or a MM entry, or both, called "Orc". What are they going to be like? I'm not talking about a group that fills a similar narrative role, I'm talking about orcs. What are the inoffensive, yet not bland orcs going to be? What have they been? Level Up did a pretty good job, especially with the orc-focused cultures, but they didn't have a lot to say about orcs themselves, because without their culture orcs have very little to differentiate them from humans outside of pure cosmetics.
Are you asking us to do a whole write-up for you? Because, well, that would take a lot of time and space.

But anyway, the answer is "whatever we like." Let's assume D&D doesn't do the species/culture divide, so we need to put everything in one section. We won't use terms like violent or savage. We can use words like forceful and bold. Those aren't "inoffensive" terms; they're dynamic and descriptive and they don't limit orcs to either being monsters or "happy gumdrops" either. We can give them a tribal society but bring up trade networks, like @Chaosmancer mentioned, and clever innovations. The Scythians were nomadic but skilled bronze-smiths, which means that even if orcs never set down permanent roots they could still have metallurgy, and if they do have villages and towns, they could become even better smiths. Maybe they'll never be as good as dwarfs, maybe the things they make would be considered crude by modern humans (us), but that's OK. It's still better than leaving them as non-creative savages who do nothing but steal and break what other races make. Or we could do this: I've always felt the one way to salvage the gully dwarfs would be to have them work with clay: make them expert potters and sculptors. Other dwarfs would consider that dirty and stupid, because objects made of clay aren't as sturdy as objects made of stone or metal--but clay is actually very important. Without gully dwarfs, you could let orcs become the potters, a niche which is sorely lacking in D&D.

We could bring in, as I mentioned before, herding and ranching, another empty niche in D&D. Or we could have orcs be mighty hunters who prefer to go after bigger and more powerful prey--a human may bring down a deer but an orc will go after a hippo. (Or fantasy versions thereof).

And maybe orcs are prone to war, on a cultural level. That's fine, as long as there are reasons for those wars beyond "orcs are savages". Maybe they actually have a lot of customs and rules and war amongst themselves when they're broken; they could also believe that non-orcs can't possibly understand those rules and don't hold it against them when they're accidentally broken. And if orcs are forceful and bold, then perhaps they have no problem being mercenaries or signing up to other people's armies. In which case, orcs can still be "the bad guy" by simply being in the other person's army--because hey, it's a job.

And take a look at the traditional orc gods without the traditional Always Evil glasses on: We have Baghtru, god of strength; Ilneval, god of clever strategies; and Luthic, goddess of home, hearth, fertility, and medicine; all led by Gruumsh, a god who made sure his people could survive in any environment. We could even make Yurtrus, god of disease, more neutral; Babalú Ayé is a Yorube god of both diseases and their cures and Yurtrus could be similar. Shargaas, god of darkness, could remain a bogeyman deity (and IMO a good reason to not give orcs darkvision), or perhaps be he could be turned into a trickster god.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top