D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Faolyn]

It would be so much easier if we could just enhance the inhuman aspects of these groups, make them non-playable monsters again. But few designers seem willing to give that a try. For my part I'm still trying to understand what attracts people to orcs in the first place. Take all the LOTR stuff away and there's really nothing in my opinion that distinguishes them from humans outside of physical appearance. As I said above, I'm sure that's why they added super-strength to them in modern depictions.

It's far too late to make then non-playable monsters again. It's getting to be too late to have any humanoids be non-playable monsters. No matter what, they're humanoid and people are going to see them as people, and it's wrong to see an entire race as being monsters. Just like it was wrong when comics in the 40s portrayed Japanese people as being monstrous yellow demon-things. We've grown up since then.

Half-orcs in 1e got +1 Strength, so it's pretty obvious why full-blooded orcs would be seen as stronger than that.

But why do people like playing orcs? I just googled it and got quotes such as "Orcs are uncomplicated, direct, strong, warlike, hard to kill, ferocius and love a good old-fashioned head-on charge! And, very important thing, they like to crush Elves!" (Snarf must've written this one.) and, on a reddit post, "People always talk about the orcs as if they're ugly, but goddamn, both genders are just so manly and sexy, I'm legitimately attracted to them."

Also probably people like them because beauty is only skin deep. Like the Beast from Beauty And The Beast, an orc may look monstrous but still be a decent person underneath that, if someone would just show them some kindness and understanding--and that's more important for many people than having someone who's just pretty.

And more importantly, people like underdogs--and in D&D, orcs (and goblins, bullywugs, kobolds, etc.) have always been the underdogs. The people you're supposed to kill until you're high enough in level to make actual changes to the world.

 

[Minigiant]

It doesn't have to. Clearly they get food from raiding and hunting. A blurb about orcs can't get into the details about orc society, but they will have hunters. Hell if you really want to look at a certain way, hunting is just raiding the land, so they're still raiders!

If you want the game to explain every detail about how the various races survive, none of them can survive. Not one race(PC or otherwise) has enough detail to explain its survival.

Once d&D morphed overland being a major part of the game, the overland description of human, elf, dwarves, halflings, and orcs became important parts of the game.

D&D isn't just a dungeon game anymore. WOTC has to create for the game D&D evolved to.

 

[Incenjucar]

Shrek could easily have been an orc instead of an ogre, and they keep on making bank with him.

 

[Maxperson]

Once d&D morphed overland being a major part of the game, the overland description of human, elf, dwarves, halflings, and orcs became important parts of the game.

D&D isn't just a dungeon game anymore. WOTC has to create for the game D&D evolved to.

You completely miss the point. D&D has never been a game where the races are capable of survival based solely on what is written about them. Hell, if you take the adventuring day to heart, all the races are long dead from the sheer hordes of CR 1-30 monsters that roam the world in such large numbers that all adventuring groups from level 1 to 20 encounter 6-8 medium to hard encounters be adventuring day. That applies no matter where these groups go, so there have to be at least several times more of those monsters wandering around the world than there are adventurers to encounter them. Poof, dead world if we apply logic.

The answer is of course not to expect the game to apply it for you, but rather you take the game and modify it to the point where you are comfortable with the level of illogic that is happening.

 

[MGibster]

It's probably Warcraft's influence but still.

One of my uncles died around 1980, and I didn't learn he played D&D or get a chance to look through his collection until 2018. We're talking the little white books here not even AD&D. Among his collection was part of an adventure he was writing that featured a group of Lawful Good orcs (I guess the LG alignment must indicate some AD&D influences as I think originally alignment was Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral). These LG orcs were converted by a cleric of the same alignment. The idea of good orcs has been around for a while.

It would be so much easier if we could just enhance the inhuman aspects of these groups, make them non-playable monsters again. But few designers seem willing to give that a try. For my part I'm still trying to understand what attracts people to orcs in the first place. Take all the LOTR stuff away and there's really nothing in my opinion that distinguishes them from humans outside of physical appearance. As I said above, I'm sure that's why they added super-strength to them in modern depictions.

I feel like that about almost all the demi-humans.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

One of my uncles died around 1980, and I didn't learn he played D&D or get a chance to look through his collection until 2018. We're talking the little white books here not even AD&D. Among his collection was part of an adventure he was writing that featured a group of Lawful Good orcs (I guess the LG alignment must indicate some AD&D influences as I think originally alignment was Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral). These LG orcs were converted by a cleric of the same alignment. The idea of good orcs has been around for a while.

Good orcs, good liches, good dragons, goblins that heal when you damage them... Opposite day is old hat for D&D.

But the idea of getting offended about the existence of evil orcs because you IDENTIFY with the fantasy Nazis (orcs) on behalf of your a real world-identity is something that your uncle happily does not seem to have had.

Please correct me if he did because that would be very interesting.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But the idea of getting offended about the existence of evil orcs because you IDENTIFY with the fantasy Nazis (orcs) on behalf of your a real world-identity is something that your uncle happily does not seem to have had.

Fantasy 'savage' indigenous peoples who need to die because they have what the 'civilized' people want.

Let's not try and twist this into the opposition being Nazis. They're the ones that wanted to kill people for what race they were without considering their personhood.

 

[Faolyn]

All great ideas. Thank you for answering me. The only issue I see with that is it is  far too much detail to put into anything less than a setting book that spends a lot of time with a culture of orcs. The PH needs something much more brief than that, on par with the descriptions of other species. Since we're using entirely different shorthand now, that section (and anything written for them in the MM, if they appear there at all) would need to be completely re-written, and getting the gist of what you're describing into the species description will not be an easy task.

But again, thank you. What you provided is exactly what I asked for, and it really is great stuff.

Thanks!

The idea would be for things like these to be scattered throughout the book. If the next PHB has a section for gods, then the revamped orc gods could go there. If there are backgrounds, then a crafter or merchant background could reference orc potters or bronzesmiths/brownsmiths, in addition to dwarf blacksmiths, gnome jewelers, and elf wood-crafters. The actual orc description could just list a few highlights--ranching/herding or hunting really big game; unique social mores that they take serious but will forgive people for unknowingly breaking... once; being stalwart warriors or mercenaries. Just enough to give players an idea of what they're like. That would just be a paragraph or two at most, leaving another paragraph for physical description.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Fantasy 'savage' indigenous peoples who need to die because they have what the 'civilized' people want.

Let's not try and twist this into the opposition being Nazis. They're the ones that wanted to kill people for what race they were without considering their personhood.

Are you saying your uncle's orcs were Lawful Good AND indigenous-themed, as opposed to Tolkien's fantasy Nazis (industrial metalworkers with pollution and gunpowder)? What did your uncle's notes say to make them seem less industrialized?

I don't know who you mean by "the opposition". You don't seem to mean the orcs, but orcs are who I mean when I say "fantasy Nazis." Your uncle may have had Lawful Good Nazis without changing them into Lawful Good indigenes. It's modern people who see fantasy Nazis (orcs) on paper and think "clearly indigenous peoples!", which weirds me out.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Are you saying your uncle's orcs were Lawful Good AND indigenous-themed

Yes. McGibster and I are actually identical twins.*


*This might not be true