D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Hussar]

Sure, two skills...


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Would we still get a full entry in the PHB if half-elves become a line on a sidebar? Will half-elf NPCs keep showing in adventures?

Full entry? No, you're right. Probably not. Will they keep showing up in adventures? Odds are pretty good that yes, one of the most popularly played races in the game will show up as NPC's in the game.

Why do you think that not having a writeup in the PHB means they will no longer appear?

 

[Justice and Rule]

The problem is it isn't really.

2014 5e's orc still ran out the monstrous horde trope. Hence the Half orc in the 2014 PHB to be an orciod who can contained himself or herself.

It wasn't until Wildemount and Eberron offered conversions of their orcs and the international racial issue uproars that WOTC decided to address orcs.

It's worth remembering that 5E started pretty bad on monsters, being more of a nostalgic step back when it came to lore. I feel like part of that was they didn't expect to be big and thus were betting on people coming back rather than a sudden wave of new players coming into the game. Suddenly the game becomes big, the audience changes, and the nostalgia-bait portrayals get more of a look than they were ever meant to.

 

[MoonSong]

Full entry? No, you're right. Probably not. Will they keep showing up in adventures? Odds are pretty good that yes, one of the most popularly played races in the game will show up as NPC's in the game.

Why do you think that not having a writeup in the PHB means they will no longer appear?

How many half-orcs showed up as NPCs during the 2e era? How many Eladrin show up as NPCs in published adventures these days? Until I see it happen, I have zero faith that half-elves will remain a thing once they aren't a full entry in the books.

 

[Maxperson]

But since it’s not phrased as a negative, what’s the problem with it being similar to anyone ? The issue is negative stereotypes.

I'm failing to see how, "While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians..." isn't being phrased as a negative. Is being depicted as a savage brute or a ravaging barbarian now a good thing?

 

[Maxperson]

You're missing my point. D&D has shifted from being completely dungeon based.

Not missing the point. It's just not much of a point as there are literally no races in any edition of D&D who have been given enough to explain their survival.

So how a humanoid race would set up their own civilizations and settlements is important because in 2023, playersmight travel to their lands. The PCs might travel to the orc lands.

You would need a 300+ page book on every race and many monsters if you want to explain how they survive now that D&D is based in both dungeons and the world at large.

The problem for orcs isn't absence of lore. It is that the lore is given to fans and it's nonsense. It says that they don't settle. It says that their lust forces them to raid. It says the orc drain all the resources in an area then moves on. The default Orcs are written as the Zerg or Tyranids without the biomass to muscle mass engine and hive mind that power them.

Change the lore however you like and if you use the same amount of space, the text will fail to explain how orcs survive.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I'm failing to see how, "While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians..." isn't being phrased as a negative. Is being depicted as a savage brute or a ravaging barbarian now a good thing?

The words "sometimes depicted" followed by "in fact" would indicate several things:

• This is an in-universe view, not something that is a universal truth
• It is not held by all people
• Is actually wrong

Further, it even states that they have a variety of cultures, thus the idea that they are a cultural monolith also being wrong. So yeah, that's actually not bad at all.

 

[Yaarel]

How many half-orcs showed up as NPCs during the 2e era? How many Eladrin show up as NPCs in published adventures these days? Until I see it happen, I have zero faith that half-elves will remain a thing once they aren't a full entry in the books.

Personally, I am not worried about mixed Human-Orc characters. They are here to stay.

Point of the play test is, other species can mix too.

I expect future playtests to add more customizability to the species mechanics. Not only will there be different options for an Elf and different options for a Dwarf, there will be more meaningful opportunities to select options from both Elf and Dwarf for a character that is an Elf-Dwarf mix.

The simplest way to do this is to bundle the species features into half-feats to choose from. Pick two half-feats from one parentage, and two from the other, or whatever makes sense for the character concept.

 

[Maxperson]

The words "sometimes depicted" followed by "in fact" would indicate several things:

• This is an in-universe view, not something that is a universal truth

Which is how it is in the real world.

• It is not held by all people

Which is how it is in the real world.

• Is actually wrong

Which is how it is in the real world.

Further, it even states that they have a variety of cultures, thus the idea that they are a cultural monolith also being wrong. So yeah, that's actually not bad at all.

Which is how it is in the real world.

Isn't the point to avoid negative language that can apply to real world cultures? I mean if "that's not actually bad at all" there, why is it bad in the real world?

And please note that I'm not arguing that it's not bad in the real world.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Which is how it is in the real world.

But not always in the fantasy world.

Which is how it is in the real world.

But not always in the fantasy world.

Which is how it is in the real world.

But not always in the fantasy world.

Which is how it is in the real world.

But not always in the fantasy world.

Isn't the point to avoid negative language that can apply to real world cultures? I mean if "that's not actually bad at all" there, why is it bad in the real world?

And please note that I'm not arguing that it's not bad in the real world.

Because you really don't understand that moving from "These are untamed animals who can barely be domesticated and can feel the same emotions you do" to "These people are depicted poorly but are profoundly misunderstood and maligned" is actually an incredibly big move towards nuance comparatively speaking.

Also, acknowledging that some people are unfairly maligned is an important part of actually confronting it. Not recognizing it misses that it is there and that it needs to be fought against.

 

[MoonSong]

Personally, I am not worried about mixed Human-Orc characters. They are here to stay.

Point of the play test is, other species can mix too.

I expect future playtests to add more customizability to the species mechanics. Not only will there be different options for an Elf and different options for a Dwarf, there will be more meaningful opportunities to select options from both Elf and Dwarf for a character that is an Elf-Dwarf mix.

The simplest way to do this is to bundle the species features into half-feats to choose from. Pick two half-feats from one parentage, and two from the other, or whatever makes sense for the character concept.

Until these happen -if ever-, I have no reason to be happy about any of this. Even if we get these rules, this is all coming out of the erasure of half-elves and half-orcs. Having an explicit option that doesn't reek of blood purity language would be an improvement, but still we are dealing with the de-normalization and marginalization of mixed characters. You are not part of any collective anymore, you are weird one-off occurrence instead. Or do you seriously think we will start getting tons of mixed NPCs based on what will be a glorified sidebar with no actual lore?