D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Maxperson]

Because you really don't understand that moving from "These are untamed animals who can barely be domesticated and can feel the same emotions you do" to "These people are depicted poorly but are profoundly misunderstood and maligned" is actually an incredibly big move towards nuance comparatively speaking.

But this is exactly how the racism in the real world is done. I'm really super confused now. You're arguing that language used in the fantasy world on a fantasy race that is racially charged and wrong when used on people in the real world is "not actually bad." That's literally the same argument used to oppose the orc changes.

Also, acknowledging that some people are unfairly maligned is an important part of actually confronting it. Not recognizing it misses that it is there and that it needs to be fought against.

That part I understand. It's better than not recognizing it, but if one type of language is bad, I'm still failing to see how both are not bad.

 

[Incenjucar]

Personally I would prefer if elves and dwarves were not depicted as a bunch of rampantly racist people while still often be associated with the "good" alignment.

 

[Justice and Rule]

But this is exactly how the racism in the real world is done. I'm really super confused now. You're arguing that language used in the fantasy world on a fantasy race that is racially charged and wrong when used on people in the real world is "not actually bad." That's literally the same argument used to oppose the orc changes.

No, there's a difference between acknowledging racism and just spouting it. I'm not sure how I can explain it any clearer than I already have, to be honest. It's just a very easy concept to grasp.

That part I understand. It's better than not recognizing it, but if one type of language is bad, I'm still failing to see how both are not bad.

They're not bad because it's okay to be a deeply spiritual people with a variety of different cultural groups. If you can recognize how the start is merely recognizing racism, I don't see how the ending part is negative in any manner.

 

[Minigiant]

Not missing the point. It's just not much of a point as there are literally no races in any edition of D&D who have been given enough to explain their survival.

The point is the MM cut off multiple avenues of the default orcs.

For example,the default halfling doesn't build cities. But it says halfling put effort into diplomacy and friendship to live in the cities of other races peacefully.

The default orc also removes orc cities. It also removes orc farming and crafting. And replaces it with antagonism and devastation.

You would need a 300+ page book on every race and many monsters if you want to explain how they survive now that D&D is based in both dungeons and the world at large.

No. Just if you take away from a race, give back.

It's not the 1970s when fans are okay with blatantly underpowered races to laugh at them.

 

[Maxperson]

The point is the MM cut off multiple avenues of the default orcs.

For example,the default halfling doesn't build cities. But it says halfling put effort into diplomacy and friendship to live in the cities of other races peacefully.

The default orc also removes orc cities. It also removes orc farming and crafting. And replaces it with antagonism and devastation.

Okay. Put it back. My 5e orcs have forges, farm, build, and are not all rabid plunderers. Guess how long it took to make that change?

No. Just if you take away from a race, give back.

It's not the 1970s when fans are okay with blatantly underpowered races to laugh at them.

I'm not sure what you are saying here in the context of discussing lore. Lore doesn't over or underpower races.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not sure what you are saying here in the context of discussing lore. Lore doesn't over or underpower races

A race can be unpowered or overpowered in their lore.

 

[Maxperson]

A race can be unpowered or overpowered in their lore.

Can you demonstrate how something that isn't mechanical under or overpowers a race?

 

[Minigiant]

Can you demonstrate how something that isn't mechanical under or overpowers a race?

Power is power.

The armies of Lord Green is power more powerful that the combined forces of the Red Lion tribe.

The default lore of the MM orcs is that although strong, the might of orcs lacks the mentality or phsycallity to conquer nations.
At least hobgoblins are given the nod of being allow to conquer nations to act and future staging points.

But this is beyond the point. The point is that the 2014 orcs were described as humaniod shaped but they don't think like humaniods who have free will and full sapience. Being an orc and being like people required playing as a half orc.

Is being a humaniod just having the human shape or also having the same type of thought capability?
This is why gnolls were turned into fiends. Gnolls in 5e are not people.

If 2024 orcs are people, the MM lore has to be written as if they are fully people. Once that lore is creaated, then the discussion of what a half orc is.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Can you demonstrate how something that isn't mechanical under or overpowers a race?

A race that has a per capita birth rate of 0.5 per year and grows to maturity in only 3 years, has overwhelming racial solidarity (lacks intraracial violent or fraudulent motives), and is otherwise similar to humans, will drive humans, elves, etc. to extinction in short order. But most people would consider that "lore", not mechanics, unless you couple it with level limits.

 

[Hussar]

How many half-orcs showed up as NPCs during the 2e era? How many Eladrin show up as NPCs in published adventures these days? Until I see it happen, I have zero faith that half-elves will remain a thing once they aren't a full entry in the books.

The primary antagonist in The Scriveners Tale in Candlekeep Mysteries started out as an Eladrin.

I would point out though that Eladrin hardly have the history in the game that half-elves do. They appeared in 4e and 4e has cooties, so, it's not shocking that they would almost never appear in 5e.

Note, half-orcs were full on removed in 2e. Not just changed, but, flat out gone. As in not existing at all. So, it's not really a shock to not see half-orcs in 2e adventures as NPC's. Not really the same thing.

I mean, heck, how many half-elves appear in any published adventures period in any edition? Having a full entry in the PHB didn't exactly mean that they showed up regularly. Outside of Tanis (which was meant as a PC option), half elves barely make it into most adventures as is. Complaining that removing the full entry will suddenly make them appear less seems a bit of a stretch.