Why do RPGs have rules?

[AbdulAlhazred]

You hold this up as a good, interesting, novel thing- and I agree.

It was fun. And the existence of these raiders was certainly an 'unwelcome truth', which @Pedantic is correct is the proper reading of VB.

I don't see this as coming from Vincent because you used rules to determine this. Which he seems to dislike.

Baker doesn't 'dislike rules' at all. And the very rules I was using ARE HIS because this was a game of Stonetop, which is a variant of Dungeon World, which is VERY MUCH a pretty straight up genre shift of AW with perhaps some very mild shift in tone, Vince Baker's own game. The 'know things' move in ST is simply a slightly generalized version of 'Spout Lore' from DW. Now, I don't know Vince and never played in a game run by the guy, but I bet money he'd consider that play we had to be very classic play doing what he's talking about.

There is no RPG game that I have ever played where your scenario could not come about,

I've never seen this sort of focus on interpersonal dynamics, especially between a mix of PCs and NPCs, evinced in any sort of 'classic' type of RPG play. I say this as a person who has played a truly significant amount of RPGs! Lets put it this way, I don't think its impossible, but only 1 in many 1000s of GMs, and only with exactly the right set of players, would generate this situation using something like D&D. So, you may, in some sense be technically correct, but that's like saying its possible to crashland a jetliner in the Hudson. Yup, 1 time in 10,000 maybe, with 1 in 100 pilots and a perfect situation. Its basically a meaningless statement, as you could try it every day for 100 years before you see it again.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I've never seen this sort of focus on interpersonal dynamics, especially between a mix of PCs and NPCs, evinced in any sort of 'classic' type of RPG play. ... Yup, 1 time in 10,000 maybe, with 1 in 100 pilots and a perfect situation. Its basically a meaningless statement, as you could try it every day for 100 years before you see it again.

Or, every two weeks or so.

My players are dungeon delving right now, and session before last the paladin was getting ready to throw down with either the cleric or his shadow love-interest. The party was travelling across a glacier and were attacked by some shadows. The cleric of [ death / extreme tenacity in the face of adversity / Patron of the Undead ] was able to control one and started to question it after the fight. He was able to get her talking about when she died, the courage as she gathered as the glacier was crushing her town and the shadows consuming the townsfolk. As an aspect of communication with her, the shadow, he realized he was becoming infatuated with this being. It certainly seems self-aware...

As this point we hear "WHAT?" from the kitchen, and the paladin stopped cooking dinner and came back to the party. "We Are Not having a shadow of all things in the party!" There was much impassioned discussion, and then, regretfully, the cleric sent the shadow away across the surface of the glacier.

As they are within the ice cave they have found a warded ruin where they can safely rest. At dawn, the cleric looks out across the frozen fields around the ruin, he can see a watching silhouette in the distance that quickly finds cover from the sun.

In AD&D.

At some point, I need to find the where-with-all to write about how custom car culture has impacted my gaming.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or, every two weeks or so.

My players are dungeon delving right now, and session before last the paladin was getting ready to throw down with either the cleric or his shadow love-interest. The party was travelling across a glacier and were attacked by some shadows. The cleric of [ death / extreme tenacity in the face of adversity / Patron of the Undead ] was able to control one and started to question it after the fight. He was able to get her talking about when she died, the courage as she gathered as the glacier was crushing her town and the shadows consuming the townsfolk. As an aspect of communication with her, the shadow, he realized he was becoming infatuated with this being. It certainly seems self-aware...

As this point we hear "WHAT?" from the kitchen, and the paladin stopped cooking dinner and came back to the party. "We Are Not having a shadow of all things in the party!" There was much impassioned discussion, and then, regretfully, the cleric sent the shadow away across the surface of the glacier.

As they are within the ice cave they have found a warded ruin where they can safely rest. At dawn, the cleric looks out across the frozen fields around the ruin, he can see a watching silhouette in the distance that quickly finds cover from the sun.

In AD&D.

At some point, I need to find the where-with-all to write about how custom car culture has impacted my gaming.

Yes, I don't think that this is equivalent to the Stonetop play I was discussing (and I only covered a part of our play that was focused on that one event). The interactions between the various characters in Stonetop (and this is our FIRST SESSION, though we did a brief chargen discussion a few weeks ago) is reasonably nuanced. Tober is concerned about Meda's meddling in 'things best left alone', but he ended up giving Jenfir to her to take care of, as they are on friendly terms and he had another urgent crisis to deal with (some of his parent's goats I believe). The 2 other PCs seem to be pretty buddy buddy (they were dealing with a more serious issue) but several factors came up with them. One character has a major rival, whom we were able to get to head up the Jenfir's Mother rescue mission, after we cleared everything with the town elders (some politics, we learned that one of the elders, the seer, while actually a child, is a bit of a pill). Basically the whole game, in all its details, is pretty much this web of interactions. The elders were happy to send out Marshal Berkhard's rival, as they clearly see how this helps the rivalry (either the guy dies, or at least he's out of their hair for a few days). Meda is now tangled up in it by promising Jenfir they will rescue her mother, but who knows if that will come off! She's put Ifrhys in danger, and manipulated him when she's not at all interested in him.

I mean, it feels much more like authentic roles than what you will get in more classic games, and none of the situation or action is really generated out of "setting logic." In fact, it was Meda using "Know Things" and getting a 6 which (in game mechanical terms) caused the GM to invent the fact that the raiders are 'reaping' and that we must distract them. The existence and nature of Jenfir was a mix of GM input (an initial suggestion that Tober's parents, the town goatherds could get help if we acquired a new goatherd from the Hillfolk, this is already based on Tober's backstory) which @niklinna then picked up on. Jenfir is presumably this potential goatherd, or maybe one of her family is, I guess we'll see how that plays out. There's a whole other "killer wasps" thing that is also playing out, which came into being as part of one of our character's backstory, plus another thread we picked up that resulted in Haf using a miracle to heal a child, who now appears to be somehow bonded to Haf or somehow connected with Haf's god (Pelor basically).

This is all built on character backstory, NPCs we invented as part of our chargen (which includes fleshing out the town a bit, no specific NPCs are canonically present in the town, we made them all up) and a couple questions we answered that the GM asked us. There is a modest bit of input from the general Stonetop setting lore, which suggests the nature of the milieu, the existence of the Forest filled with danger (wasps in our case), the existence of 'hillfolk', etc. The setting states that there are 'town elders', but who they are, how you get to be one, etc. is entirely open. Likewise Berhard's position as the marshal is dictated by his playbook, etc. You will definitely end up with similar incarnations of Stonetop in every game, but the details are pretty wide open. While there are a few potential "explore this location" references on the area map, we would likely only venture to specific places because we've developed some information linking them to our personal goals or whatever. Like Meda's goal, currently, is to find her missing father. Nothing in our first session related directly to that, but I'm sure some clue, rumor, etc. will appear before too long.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Yes, I don't think that this is equivalent to the Stonetop play I was discussing...

I don't see why not.

You state that the characters have backgrounds chosen in regard to the other characters, the setting, and themselves.

• Ms. Dude, paladin*, affiliated with the Bright Temple, volunteers time performing charity works rather than training.
• Maisry, fighter, curious about the non-standard faiths, seeking to prove herself in battle, fearful of being or appearing weak.
• Anoixan, magician, deeply curious about magic theory to the point of seeking to learn different branches of magic, desires to make spells or items named after him.
• Lothric, cleric, devoted to the Lord Nergal, Patron of Defiance, Tenacity, Undeath, seeks deep communion with his Patron as he feels alienated from other people.

You state that they develop and resolve rivalries, gain friends, and accrue obligations.

Ms. Dude: Helps organize an orphanage paid via her share of the treasure. In order to obtain permission, grants, and rights for land Ms. Dude interacts with local nobles and arrivesti**. [Skills: Influence (Cha), Perception (Int), Gambling (Dex)] Through a grand success (very high roll) she meets and befriends Lady Doe, a third daughter of a noble family sent to the Bright Temple. A skilled healer, she accompanies her on adventures.

Maisry: Looking to outright murder the magician Stone, who has been a pain in the party's collective neck since they accidentally brought him back from the dead. She discovers the he is hiding out in Lady Pettigrew's mansion, and perhaps even her lover. She and a couple friends invite themselves over to the arrivest's mansion for the Lady's noted hospitality. They discuss, first obliquely, then directly, her relationship to Stone and where he might be. [Skills: Influence (Cha), Perception (Int); Contact: Noble] A marginal roll on Perception, modified by the use of a Noble contact to have the meeting, told me that the Lady Pettigrew had a minor son of the family Manderly was one of her bodyguards. If he was slain, and he was, Lord Manderly would want revenge.

Anoixan: Well, sometimes magic doesn't work the way you want. And, sometimes you have friends who want to do bad things and you have to continually hold them back. For someone who wants to gain fame through magical inventiveness, reminding your wizard buddy from a different guild that you can't experiment on the peasants gets to be stressful. After difficult magical experimentation using a very limited mind-expanding substance, he really didn't need to hear the horrible plan his dark wizard friend and Maisry cooked up. When he's not adventuring or experimenting, you can often find him drowning his sorrows at his favorite meadery. [Forget the skill checks, Magical Theory (Int) definitely, but he ended up with success, but you have to deal with the psychic pain somehow. Alcohol works for the character, however maladaptive. This was highly player driven, and not a twist I expected!]

Lothric: The cleric mentioned above, shadow girlfriend, the spells hold shadow (Anoixan), speak with dead, lesser restoration (flex), Skills: Influence (Cha), Religious Lore (Int), Insight (Wis). He got a grand success on the Insight.

So,
Your players have characters with backstories.
My players have characters with backstories.

You have a mechanism that indicates a twist or complication should be introduced.
I have a mechanism that indicates a twist or complication should be introduced.

You have a method where players can negotiate narration of responses.
I have a method where players can negotiate narration of responses.

I grant that you have a system that is more elegant for that purpose. But do not assume that it is an experience foreign or rare to me.

* Paladins are not tied to a temple, and don't source divine power. They have an inner strength and true moral compass that allows them achievements beyond the typical.
** Arrivesti are, basically, merchants who purchased noble title.

 

[pemerton]

Exactly?

Perhaps I misunderstood, but "twists" and "curves" that come up make the game interesting. That these things can send play in unexpected directions are exactly the point. Mr. Baker seems to think that rules that provide this are unwelcome.

I think you've misread Baker:

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of an rpg's rules is to create the unwelcome and the unwanted in the game's fiction. The reason to play by rules is because you want the unwelcome and the unwanted

 

[pemerton]

Agreed. I think he'd have a bigger audience if he explained some of his stuff more/better. "To do it, do it" really put me off when I first saw it. Oh, really? I never would have guessed! His subsequent "explanation" was also less than satisfactory. Still I think he has injected some pretty awesome ideas into the RPG space.

I think "if you do it, you do it" is one of the clearest statements of RPG rules I've seen. It contrasts with "say 'yes' or roll the dice", which is the rule from Baker's other famous game (DitV) and is taken up in Burning Wheel and is implicit in some other RPGs too.

"If you do it, you do it" also contrast with the default rule in D&D-ish play, which is more like "If you try and do it, the GM tells you whether or not you actually do it and, if so, what dice if any you should roll."

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't see why not.

You state that the characters have backgrounds chosen in regard to the other characters, the setting, and themselves.

• Ms. Dude, paladin*, affiliated with the Bright Temple, volunteers time performing charity works rather than training.
• Maisry, fighter, curious about the non-standard faiths, seeking to prove herself in battle, fearful of being or appearing weak.
• Anoixan, magician, deeply curious about magic theory to the point of seeking to learn different branches of magic, desires to make spells or items named after him.
• Lothric, cleric, devoted to the Lord Nergal, Patron of Defiance, Tenacity, Undeath, seeks deep communion with his Patron as he feels alienated from other people.

You state that they develop and resolve rivalries, gain friends, and accrue obligations.

Ms. Dude: Helps organize an orphanage paid via her share of the treasure. In order to obtain permission, grants, and rights for land Ms. Dude interacts with local nobles and arrivesti**. [Skills: Influence (Cha), Perception (Int), Gambling (Dex)] Through a grand success (very high roll) she meets and befriends Lady Doe, a third daughter of a noble family sent to the Bright Temple. A skilled healer, she accompanies her on adventures.

Maisry: Looking to outright murder the magician Stone, who has been a pain in the party's collective neck since they accidentally brought him back from the dead. She discovers the he is hiding out in Lady Pettigrew's mansion, and perhaps even her lover. She and a couple friends invite themselves over to the arrivest's mansion for the Lady's noted hospitality. They discuss, first obliquely, then directly, her relationship to Stone and where he might be. [Skills: Influence (Cha), Perception (Int); Contact: Noble] A marginal roll on Perception, modified by the use of a Noble contact to have the meeting, told me that the Lady Pettigrew had a minor son of the family Manderly was one of her bodyguards. If he was slain, and he was, Lord Manderly would want revenge.

Anoixan: Well, sometimes magic doesn't work the way you want. And, sometimes you have friends who want to do bad things and you have to continually hold them back. For someone who wants to gain fame through magical inventiveness, reminding your wizard buddy from a different guild that you can't experiment on the peasants gets to be stressful. After difficult magical experimentation using a very limited mind-expanding substance, he really didn't need to hear the horrible plan his dark wizard friend and Maisry cooked up. When he's not adventuring or experimenting, you can often find him drowning his sorrows at his favorite meadery. [Forget the skill checks, Magical Theory (Int) definitely, but he ended up with success, but you have to deal with the psychic pain somehow. Alcohol works for the character, however maladaptive. This was highly player driven, and not a twist I expected!]

Lothric: The cleric mentioned above, shadow girlfriend, the spells hold shadow (Anoixan), speak with dead, lesser restoration (flex), Skills: Influence (Cha), Religious Lore (Int), Insight (Wis). He got a grand success on the Insight.

So,
Your players have characters with backstories.
My players have characters with backstories.

You have a mechanism that indicates a twist or complication should be introduced.
I have a mechanism that indicates a twist or complication should be introduced.

You have a method where players can negotiate narration of responses.
I have a method where players can negotiate narration of responses.

I grant that you have a system that is more elegant for that purpose. But do not assume that it is an experience foreign or rare to me.

* Paladins are not tied to a temple, and don't source divine power. They have an inner strength and true moral compass that allows them achievements beyond the typical.
** Arrivesti are, basically, merchants who purchased noble title.

Well, its always going to be dicey to try to diagnose other people's games based on limited descriptions. Beyond that I think maybe beyond a certain point we're getting into a discussion that is probably tangential to the one @pemerton is engaged in, plus this all seems like one of those "we had this discussion in every 2nd thread all over again" kinds of things. I guess the only observation I would make is that in our ST game, or a DW/AW game, there isn't really anything else but the sort of thing I was describing above. If I attempted to run my character as pretty much just a generic guy, go around, do actions, really shallow character, play would basically collapse. There wouldn't really be any direction or force to it. I mean, the GM would probably push on me so hard SOMETHING would happen, but its not like D&D games I've experienced where you can kinda just kick in doors, kill stuff, whatever and just "play the setting." Does that make sense?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Rather than putting it in terms of "how those characters' reality works", I'd put it in terms of who is allowed to say what in respect of what happens next in the shared fiction.

You can put it that way, and the game certainly encourages this, but that doesn't change the fact that it is how that character's reality works, which has nothing to do with the in-universe reality.

 

[pemerton]

You can put it that way, and the game certainly encourages this, but that doesn't change the fact that it is how that character's reality works, which has nothing to do with the in-universe reality.

I don't understand what you mean by "the in-universe reality".

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't understand what you mean by "the in-universe reality".

I mean the world the characters live in. The one where being "the protagonist" isn't a thing.