Why do RPGs have rules?

(D) [emphasis in original] I liked the post that sentence came from, but agree with you to the extent that that particular sentence is a bit of a mess, since it's not clear what it means to call Rule 0 a "piece of design" (it's not), a "design point", or a "piece of rhetoric". I think they were trying to say that the existence of the thing commonly called Rule 0 doesn't excuse lazy design but I am not sure. I agree with you that it's probably not possible to design an enjoyable TTRPG which doesn't have some reliance on Rule 0 if you drill down far enough; I disagree with you about point (B).
To be perfectly clear, I don't think the "incompleteness" of TTRPG design is good or interesting, it's just a product of the magnitude of the task. I think making specific reference to rule 0 in a design is at best a mistake, and more likely the designer either knowingly providing a pointedly incomplete product or making a political appeal to a specific audience.

Rhetorically, I find rule 0 and associated discourse corrosive because it devalues TTRPGs as completely designed products and encourages GMs to conflate rule creation and adjudication. That leads to low player agency environments, as it encourages a preference for specific outcomes over specific functions. That's how you get unknowable board states and players declaring actions without the ability to know their costs/chances.

Worse, it's a self perpetuating cycle. Rule 0 not only doesn't excuse lazy designs, it encourages them, both by feeding an audience that feels hemmed in by complete rulesets, and excusing shortcomings in published rulesets. It would do more good as an unstated premise, as it exists in board games, than a cherished norm as it remains in TTRPGs.
 

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Within Suits's framework, the GM also adopts the lusory attitude: they also give normative credence to the rules (including whatever rules they make up in the course of play) simply for the purpose of getting to play the game.
That's a good point. So the way in which a lusory attitude can accomodate rule-deciding power is that the lusory attitude applies to rules made up in the course of play. My concern is over what guides that making up? Based on your thought here, it's also the lusory goal and lusory attitude.

If so, then does GM have the same lusory goal as the other participants? Suits could be read to be supposing that "players" is a homogenous group. Your observation implies a different category of "players" (i.e. referees) with differing lusory goals and attitudes from others, who still give normative credence to the rules for the purpose of getting to play the game. (Nothing forestalls overlap betwee referee-player and other-player goals of course, along with any anticipated differences.)

It seems plausible to me to suppose a referee has a lusory attitude, because when we watch say a football referee they act in constrained ways consistent with whatever counts as the proper refereeing of the game. Can it be said that they adopt less efficient means? I think they adopt the most efficient means they can to achieve their goal.

Suits' "less efficient means" says something similar to Baker's "create the unwelcome and the unwanted." As Suits put it "the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles". (Emphasis mine.) And that's pretty interesting, also in light of Baker's "if all your formal rules do is structure your group's ongoing agreement about what happens in the game, they are a) interchangeable with any other rpg rules out there, and b) probably a waste of your attention. Live negotiation and honest collaboration are almost certainly better..." It seems to me that Suits and Baker are presenting similar views in this respect - where the why of game rules is to create unnecessary obstacles.

Is right to say that those with rule-deciding power share in that why? Are they too accepting unnecessary obstacles to their lusory goal? If not, their goal is presumably not a lusory one and they are as I started out thinking, not players. Where @loverdrive's contentions might lead is that TTRPG referees ought to (or can) be players, through creating unnecessary obstacles to their lusory goals.
 
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Why do we even need to hypothesize about that? I'm running Dungeon World, what rulings am I empowered to make? I know of none. The closest there is to an edge case is a custom move, but it is still bound to all the existing rules as strictly as anything else. The table still decides if my decision to make it apply is appropriate or not.
Player: I want to Action.​
Referee: So, Move1, then.​
Player: Oh, I was thinking Move2?​
Referee: Nah, Move1.​
Player: Okay.​

You've just made a ruling. Or, as you mention, the table made a ruling. If you write it down so that in the future Action --> Move2, you have made a rule.

What I see as Rule 0's intent is to clear up grey areas and to customize the game's play style to the local table's preference.
 

Worse, it's a self perpetuating cycle. Rule 0 not only doesn't excuse lazy designs, it encourages them, both by feeding an audience that feels hemmed in by complete rulesets, and excusing shortcomings in published rulesets. It would do more good as an unstated premise, as it exists in board games, than a cherished norm as it remains in TTRPGs.
Yeah, I agree with this part, except that most of the games I have played have it as an unstated premise already. At least, if there's any "Rule 0" text in, um, AD&D 2nd edition, MERP, Shadowrun, GURPS, or Dungeon Fantasy RPG I haven't noticed it[1]. IIRC only 5E bothers to explicitly state Rule 0 as a specific rule, whereas AD&D simply locks certain rules away in the DMG where players have no right to know them or complain if the DM uses different rules. For the most part I think of Rule 0 as an Internet discussion thing for talking about RPGs, not as a design feature of RPGs, again with the exception of 5E.

[1] I don't think Rule 0 is a feature of Hillfolk/DramaSystem, although arguably it's not an RPG in the first place. It's certainly not a feature of Microscope!
 

Yeah, I agree with this part, except that most of the games I have played have it as an unstated premise already. At least, if there's any "Rule 0" text in, um, AD&D 2nd edition, MERP, Shadowrun, GURPS, or Dungeon Fantasy RPG I haven't noticed it[1]. IIRC only 5E bothers to explicitly state Rule 0 as a specific rule, whereas AD&D simply locks certain rules away in the DMG where players have no right to know them or complain if the DM uses different rules. For the most part I think of Rule 0 as an Internet discussion thing for talking about RPGs, not as a design feature of RPGs, again with the exception of 5E.

[1] I don't think Rule 0 is a feature of Hillfolk/DramaSystem, although arguably it's not an RPG in the first place. It's certainly not a feature of Microscope!
5e doesn’t have an explicit rule zero. It has statements that can be read that way.
 

This is the problem with Rule Zero. It's jargon used by long time gamers to reference a bunch of things to which they've already been exposed. I know some games actually have a rule which does what Rule Zero does (or at least, does what some consider Rule Zero does), but very often that's not the case. Some games even intentionally avoid such rules.

Better to ditch Rule Zero as shorthand and instead just talk about the actual rule or the intended goal.
 

This is the problem with Rule Zero. It's jargon used by long time gamers to reference a bunch of things to which they've already been exposed. I know some games actually have a rule which does what Rule Zero does (or at least, does what some consider Rule Zero does), but very often that's not the case. Some games even intentionally avoid such rules.

Better to ditch Rule Zero as shorthand and instead just talk about the actual rule or the intended goal.
Its especially amusing since I suggested that no such rule seems to exist explicitly in D&D, and I was crazy, but apparently its unthreatening to some when @clearstream says the exact same thing? ROFL! I must be in an especially candid mood this week, I fear I better quit posting while I'm ahead.
 

you can play chess (for example) without a referee because chess is "complete" in that from a legal game state, the rules will never fail to tell you what the game state is after a legal move. Chess is closed in a way that cops and robbers is not, and which D&D would not be if DMs were not authorized to spontaneously improvise. When someone says Rule 0 is necessary to complete the game ruleset, this is what they mean.

When the players capture some hobgoblins instead of killing them, and a player says he wants to sit down and talk one of hobgoblins about how cool magic is in hopes of making the hobgoblin want to become essentially his Sith apprentice and learn magic... No 5E rule will tell you the probability of that Hobgoblin eventually becoming a 1st level Sorcerer. And yet it happened! I had to improvise rules for it
RPGs need GMs because their rulesets are not "complete" in the same sense chess is.
The inference from 5e D&D is incomplete to RPGs are incomplete is not sound.

I won't comment on 5e's completeness (or otherwise) as I don't know it well enough. But there are RPGs that are complete (eg In A Wicked Age; Wuthering Heights). The reason they have a GM is nothing to do with incompleteness: rather, it's because the gameplay relies on an asymmetry in relation to elements of the fiction. As Vincent Baker put it about 20 years ago,

You need to have a system by which scenes start and stop. The rawest solution is to do it by group consensus: anybody moved to can suggest a scene or suggest that a scene be over, and it's up to the group to act on the suggestion or not. You don't need a final authority beyond the players' collective will.

You need to have a system whereby narration becomes in-game truth. That is, when somebody suggests something to happen or something to be so, does it or doesn't it? Is it or isn't it? Again the rawest solution is group consensus, with suggestions made by whoever's moved and then taken up or let fall according to the group's interest.

You need to have orchestrated conflict, and there's the tricky bit. GMs are very good at orchestrating conflict, and it's hard to see a rawer solution. . . .

In our co-GMed Ars Magica game, each of us is responsible for orchestrating conflict for the others, which works but isn't radical wrt GM doage-away-with. It amounts to when Emily's character's conflicts climax explosively and set off Meg's character's conflicts, which also climax explosively, in a great kickin' season finale last autumn, I'm the GM. GM-swapping, in other words, isn't the same as GM-sharing.​

That is not to deny that incomplete RPGs might need someone (the GM, or whomever else) to do an additional job, of making decisions to cover gaps in the rules. But that is not the most fundamental reason for having a GM.
 


That's a good point. So the way in which a lusory attitude can accomodate rule-deciding power is that the lusory attitude applies to rules made up in the course of play. My concern is over what guides that making up? Based on your thought here, it's also the lusory goal and lusory attitude.

If so, then does GM have the same lusory goal as the other participants? Suits could be read to be supposing that "players" is a homogenous group. Your observation implies a different category of "players" (i.e. referees) with differing lusory goals and attitudes from others, who still give normative credence to the rules for the purpose of getting to play the game. (Nothing forestalls overlap betwee referee-player and other-player goals of course, along with any anticipated differences.)

It seems plausible to me to suppose a referee has a lusory attitude, because when we watch say a football referee they act in constrained ways consistent with whatever counts as the proper refereeing of the game. Can it be said that they adopt less efficient means? I think they adopt the most efficient means they can to achieve their goal.

Suits' "less efficient means" says something similar to Baker's "create the unwelcome and the unwanted." As Suits put it "the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles". (Emphasis mine.) And that's pretty interesting, also in light of Baker's "if all your formal rules do is structure your group's ongoing agreement about what happens in the game, they are a) interchangeable with any other rpg rules out there, and b) probably a waste of your attention. Live negotiation and honest collaboration are almost certainly better..." It seems to me that Suits and Baker are presenting similar views in this respect - where the why of game rules is to create unnecessary obstacles.

Is right to say that those with rule-deciding power share in that why? Are they too accepting unnecessary obstacles to their lusory goal? If not, their goal is presumably not a lusory one and they are as I started out thinking, not players. Where @loverdrive's contentions might lead is that TTRPG referees ought to (or can) be players, through creating unnecessary obstacles to their lusory goals.
I have not read Suits beyond this quote from Wikipedia (which is the quote that you provided), in the entry on Lusory attitude - Wikipedia:

To play a game is to attempt to achieve a specific state of affairs [prelusory goal], using only means permitted by rules [lusory means], where the rules prohibit use of more efficient in favour of less efficient means [constitutive rules], and where the rules are accepted just because they make possible such activity [lusory attitude].​

From this quote, it seems reasonably clear that Suits is writing in a fairly mainstream, post-War English-speaking analytic tradition. Given his interest in rules, he seems to be closer to the British (post-Wittgenstein) than the American (post-Quine) strand of that tradition.

The notion of rules as constitutive of an activity is derived from a prior body of philosophy: work on truth by convention in philosophy of logic and mathematics, and the resulting work of the logical positivists, Wittgenstein, Ryle, Austin and others on rules and meaning in natural language.

The "lusory attitude" is a fairly obvious cousin of HLA Hart's "internal point of view", which is another product of the British strand of post-War analytic philosophy. As I noted upthread, it is the attitude of giving normative credence to a set of rules that are, in a certain sense, arbitrary. That is not to say that the relationship between the rules (as "lusory means") and the goal of play (the "prelusory goal") is arbitrary - that very non-arbitrary relationship is the subject matter of game design, where technical failure and accomplishment are very real possibilities.

What is arbitrary is that one should adopt a pre-lusory goal and hence embrace lusory means at all. This is a point of contrast with logic, mathematics and language. The "lusory attitude" is simply a philosophical redescribing of the commonplace fact that people play games for fun rather than out of necessity, and in playing them for fun treat their rules as binding (ie give them normative credence) even though they don't have to do so.

There's no connection I can see between Suits' "less efficient means" and Baker's "unwelcome and unwanted". "Less efficient means" is an attempt to capture the idea of a game posing an "artificial" challenge - ie the most efficient means to create 4 piles of cards, in suits, from A to K, would be to sort and arrange them just so; but the game of solitaire imposes a baroque set of constraints around the sorting and arranging process - ie less efficient means - and thereby creates the game play. In the context of shared imagination, imposing rules about who can say what when are less efficient means; Baker's suggestion is that the only reason for wanting such less efficient means is so as to achieve the unwelcome and unwanted in the shared fiction. My OP suggests some other possible reasons too.

With all of that ground cleared, let's consider the role of the GM through Suits' lens.

Suit says nothing about players being a homogenous group. I'm sure, for instance, that he was familiar with football (soccer), in which different players enjoy different permissions resulting both from status (compare the goalie to the other players) and from position on the field at particular moments of play (the offside rule). But I doubt that he would describe this as being subject to different rules. Rather, he would describe the rules with sufficient precision to capture these different permissions. (The rules will probably end up being stated as moderately complex if-then statements along the lines of "If a player is X, Y, Z etc, then the player may A, B, C etc". Whether it's more effective to state rules in terms of what's permitted, taking anything else to be forbidden; or in terms of what is forbidden, taken everything else to be permitted; or in some combination of both permissions and forbiddings, will probably vary from game to game.)

I doubt even more that one would posit that these different players have different prelusory goals. They have a common prelusory goal, which can be summarised as playing football. (And further analysis of this might be undertaken using, for instance, Bratman's work on "we"-intentions.)

The referee of a football game is obviously not a player in Suits's sense. They don't share the prelusory goal. And they do not hold themselves bound by the rules (the lusory means). They are bound by different rules, rules of professional conduct in the refereeing of a sports game. In this way, the role of being a referee - at least as far as rules are concerned - has more in common with being a police officer, a lawyer, a doctor, etc, than it does with being a player of the game.

Through this lens, we see straight away that (for instance) while a late nineteenth century Prussian free kriegspiel referee has a lot in common with a football referee, a contemporary RPG GM has little in common with them, as the contemporary GM is a player, share the prelusory goal with the other players, and has agreed to adopt the lusory means that will enable that goal (ie a certain sort of shared fiction creation) to be achieved.

In the passage I've quoted, Suits say nothing expressly about making rules up as one goes along. He was almost certainly quite familiar with Hart's discussion of the game of "scorer's discretion". So the most natural way I would expect him to approach this is to deny that rules are made up as one goes along: rather, a proper statement of the rules includes a statement of the permissions that the "rule zero" wielder enjoys. If we take "rule zero" at face value then I think the natural conclusion is that the Suits-ian description of a RPG with a rule zero is going to look much as Vincent Baker describes it here (I've elided Baker's aesthetic judgements as best I can, which are separate from his description of the process):

with task resolution . . . whether you [the non-GM player] succeed or fail, the GM's the one who actually resolves the conflict. The dice don't, the rules don't; you're depending on the GM's mood and your relationship and all those unreliable social things the rules are supposed to even out.

Task resolution, in short, puts the GM in a position of priviledged authorship.​

In short, a RPG with "rule zero" adopts as the preeminent lusory means for achieving the prelusory goal that the GM is permitted to author the shared fiction.
 
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