D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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Entertainment and (sometimes) amusement, which are very often unrelated to their success or failure at any given thing.

I mean, I can be well entertained by a session of in-character RP where they don't even try anything to succeed or fail at.
But again, why bother to play, then? You can be entertained by watching someone else's game, like on YouTube.
 

After getting burned twice one would think the players would start greatly distrusting their quest-givers and take steps to avoid getting double-crossed again. If they didn't, they've only themselves to blame for getting nailed a third time......
In their defense, if you watch the video, that is exactly what happens. They just begin assuming that every NPC is going to screw them over.

The result is an outcome that is worse for everybody: the DM’s twist doesn’t land because the players expect it, the repeated betrayals are unrealistic, gameplay becomes somewhat predictable, and the players are metagaming by assuming every major NPC introduced is secretly evil.
 

It's unhelpful to discussions to use specific game terminology that not only is confusing but also not explained. It's also seems pretty irrelevant since this is a D&D forum.
You complained about DW being mentioned without being explained, and asked someone to explain how it would help. I then did so. And now you complain that I posted the explanation you asked for!

I can't speak for anyone else, I've never mentioned anything about hard and soft moves. It has little to nothing for why I don't care for the approach the game takes. This is yet another example of people assuming that just because a concept is repeated that everyone should just "know" what you mean. I've asked a few times and I don't remember anyone actually explaining how the rule is implemented, how it sets any real limits on the GM. It just gets repeated "the GM can make hard and soft moves", almost like a mantra.
You've had a few replies. Here's mine.

DW, like its parent AW, takes for granted that RPGing is a conversation. The participants say things, and in the process of, and as a result of, saying those things, they create a shared fiction. That shared fiction concerns the fantasy adventures of some D&D-style protagonists.

DW, like its parent AW, sets out a procedure for that conversation to follow: it's not free-form. As @hawkeyefan posted not a long way upthread, it specifies certain "triggers" for whose job it is to say what.

The most common thing for a player (cf GM) to say is what it is that their character does. When they say that, either it will trigger a player-side move, or it will not. The list of player-side moves is finite, and each states a trigger, which (with one or two exceptions that can be ignored for present purposes) takes the form of a description of an action in the fiction, like when you take aim and shoot at an enemy in range (in DW, this triggers the player-side move Volley). If a player-side move is triggered, the dice must be rolled (because of the rule "if you do it, you do it") and depending on the result (after modifiers), either the player or the GM (sometimes both) are instructed to add something further to the conversation (eg one possible result for Volley is that "You have to move to get the shot placing you in danger as described by the GM" - so the player describes "I move to get in my shot" and the GM describes the resulting danger, drawing on the established elements of the shared fiction (as per the earlier conversation), plus whatever other ideas they might have, to do so).

If the result of the roll for a player-side move is 6 or less, then the GM gets to make as hard a move as they like. More on this shortly.

If a player describes their PC doing something that does not trigger a player-side move, then the rule is that the GM "makes a move", that is, says something in the contribution. This should be a soft move, unless the player is handing the GM a golden opportunity to follow through on a threat that has already been established in the shared fiction (as a result of an earlier move).

Sometimes, in play, the players don't describe their PCs doing things, but rather look to the GM to get a sense of what is going on around them, or to get some framing, or just because they're not sure what happens next. When this happens, the GM "makes a move". Just as mentioned in the previous paragraph, this should be a soft move unless the players are handing the GM a golden opportunity to follow through on an earlier move.

When the GM makes a soft move, this means describing something in the fiction that increases the risk, or threat, or apprehension, or stakes - to speak in general terms, it contributes to the rising action. But a soft move does not foreclose the current aspiration the player has for their PC in the fictional situation. By way of contrast, a hard move consists in the GM describing something that does, in some fashion or to some extent, foreclose in that way. In other words, a hard move is immediate and irrevocable in its effect. The most generic example of a hard move is dealing damage, but obviously in many situations other, perhaps more interesting, hard moves will be possible.

The basic sequence of play that results from these rules is this: there is rising action, as the players describe their PCs doing things that do not trigger player-side moves, and the GM responds with soft moves. Then a player has their PC do something that triggers a player-side move; or, perhaps a player has their PC do something that hands the GM an opportunity. In the latter case, the rising action resolves into some sort of crisis or climax (as the GM makes a hard move). In the former case, depending on the result of the dice roll, the same may be true; or, perhaps, the result of the dice roll is another soft move (eg as per the example of Volley above, the GM describes the PC moving into a new sort of danger); or, perhaps the result of the dice roll is some sort of victory for the PC (eg in dealing their damage as a result of Volley, they kill their enemy, just ending the threat they are facing).

The most radical contrasts with D&D, as typically played are these: (i) the GM can only make a hard move in the situations I've described; the GM has no licence to make a hard move because that's what would follow from the logic of their as-yet-unrevealed prep; (ii) the GM is not permitted to narrate fiction which is not either a hard move (some sort of immediate, irrevocable crisis or climax) or a soft move (some sort of contribution to the rising action). In other words, "nothing happens" is not a legitimate move for a DW or AW GM.

Thanks for the explanation, but it still doesn't tell me much about limitations on the GM. Would any of this have changed the results of the OP's scenario and follow-up session? How?
If we then think about the OP scenario through the lens of the approach I've just described - as both @AbdulAlhazred and @hawkeyefan have done, upthread - we can see straight away that the dynamic of play would be very different. For instance, when the NPCs accuse the PCs of having committed a crime, and the players look to the GM to see what happens next, the GM would make a soft move, not the hard move of them being captured and jailed (@hawkeyefan noted this already). And suppose the PCs are in jail, and the players look to the GM to see what happens next, the GM would make a soft move - there would be none of the faffing around with the escape attempt that has no grounding in or connection to some trajectory of fiction established by the GM. Given the nature of the prep in this case, the obvious soft move as soon as the PCs are noted as being in jail would be the arrival of the mysterious stranger (which I think @AbdulAlhazred noted already). And when the PCs successfully killed the guard so as to leave no witnesses, the next GM move would be a soft one - eg "You can hear cries of alarm behind you - it seems that someone has found the body" - rather than what seems to have been a very hard one of having the PCs surrounded by guards. Etc.

The events described by the OP unfold through a series of GM hard moves and relatively few soft moves, so that instead of a rising action and the tension of false accusations, arrest and jail break the upshot is a series of faits accompli, mostly GM-dictated, which end up with the killing of all the guards that the OP complained about.

I agree that PCs should be doing cool things. On the other hand, I don't think cool things has much to do with power level. I've started people as 0 level kids in some campaigns and even though most challenges were a junkyard dog and a snowball fight they were doing cool things. They also encountered a "ghost"* that set up a lot of the campaign theme and permanently mutilated a couple of PCs* and had to be rescued by a valkyrie.
in my D&D game what happens once their in jail depends on how I envision the jail being set up. Then think about NPCs and groups that could be interested. What do those actors do? Do the PCs have a benefactor with pull, how do I envision the legal system working, do the PCs have any chance of escaping on their own if they want?
What I notice about these examples is that they emphasise the pre-eminence of the GM's conception of the fiction, and the GM's authorship of fictional elements to drive play - the rescue by the valkyrie, the GM's image of the jail and the legal system, the GM's view of whether or not the PCs have any chance of escape.

The contrast with DW is therefore quite clear. DW emphasises the GM's role in either contributing to the rising action (soft moves) or - in the circumstances that the rules dictate - contributing to crisis or climax (hard moves). When making those contributions, the GM will naturally draw on ideas about jails, and legal systems, and NPCs, but in aid of performing their job in the conversation as dictated by the rules of the game.

That is why the rules of DW would make a difference. Which answers the question you asked upthread.
 


I'm talking about things beyond just their own character(s) and into actual world-building - cosmology, geography, cultures, etc.

And when the first player above starts narrating all about that location and culture as if she's you-the-DM then boom, you've got two tiers of player: those who co-DM, and those who do not.

And sure, sometimes people are cool with this...or will at least say they are...but any issues that ever do arise are completely avoidable by simply not giving world-building powers to any players unless all the players a) vaguely-equally want them and b) are given equal opportunity to contribute and c) are willing to vaguely-equally make use of that opportunity.

So, almost a true co-DM. Yeah, I can't get behind DMing in a world/campaign you're also playing in unless it's something oddball e.g. a dream sequence or the party gets blipped to a different world.
It's important to add the context here. All players have this option, should they want it. For me, this comes down to trust in the group. Right now, I am the principle DM and they respect and enjoy the world-building that I have been doing, and I respect and enjoy their contributions; we have been playing together for awhile (though not compared to your scale!). However, my preferred DM style is extremely sand-boxy, so it's not like they can really break the game world or a narrative arc or something.

To give specifics, this player had long teased that there was something up with her character's age, and that she was much younger than she outwardly appeared. This was all her internal backstory; as DM I knew no more than anyone else. A recent run-in with a hag led to me teasing the possibility of a way to resolve her curse, whatever it was, and she decided to run with it, eventually revealing that, after being exiled from her city of birth because cultural reasons (news to me) she was taken in by a nomadic people and, for awhile, at peace (news to me, including this nomadic people whom I look forward to learning more about). However, in their travels they came upon a demonic shrine in a particular geographic location (news to me) and something about her caused a sort of demonic attack or infestation that eventually led to her exile from a fearful tribe (news to me). Now her aging seems to be accelerating and she doesn't have long to live (news to me).

We then were sort of improving together and established, with the aid of several NPCs the party sought out, that a demon of some kind is cohabitating with her in her body, and draining her life energy to grow in power while she fades. That then led to a bargain with the hag, a quid pro quo where the hag gets what she wants (reparations for damage the party caused her, plus help reuniting with her coven sisters) in exchange for the hag's help in getting the demon out of the character so it can be dealt with, restoring her stolen life energy.

I didn't have almost any of that on my radar, but it was tremendously fun and exciting for me to learn and build as the game unfolded.
 

I think this is a personal thing. A person does not come over to my house and order me around because they say "that will make me sick".
So, would you ever think to not do the thing that makes someone sick, simply out of the kindness of your heart? Or do you automatically see any request as a command?

I do think people lie all the time, even more so to get their way.

I do think it's wrong for one person to force their views on everyone else.
So, you don't believe in taking turns, accommodating others, general decency, etc? Because you know what? All of the changes my friends and I made to accommodate others? Not a single one was forced upon us. We chose to be kind and accepting to each other.

And I sure think it's wrong that some people demand I change everything, and yet they are not only unwilling to change anything, but they will pop out "medical reasons" out of thin air that just happen to agree with everything they demand.
How is "don't include mutilated babies" requiring you to change everything? Seriously, there's so much potential horror in a borg cube. I can think of a dozen things right away due to my love of Giger-esque body horror, that don't require doing something that a very large number of people find very distressing.

And yes, why wouldn't medical reasons agree with what they're asking? You seem shocked that someone would say "I can't eat this food because I have that medical condition"? Why is that?

I have a framed Death Star poster that says "that's no moon....." , there is a guy that makes a big deal about it as it's a "Weapon of Mass Destruction". I'm sure you would take it down every time he came over to make him happy. I leave it on the wall.
Well, yes, if I had a piece of art on my wall that actually was causing literal distress, then sure. Unless it was taped to the wall or something and couldn't be removed without damaging it or the wall, why not? It's easy enough to do.

But I have a feeling that this guy isn't suffering actual distress from the poster. Let me guess--you're one of those people who unironically insist that The Empire Was Right and he's trying to point out that maybe people who use planet-destroying weapons aren't actually the good guys, and you're mistaking that for "making a big deal."

I go over his house and he has a poster of a criminal hanging on his wall with an explicit quote. But if I was to say that offends me, he would just be "whatever dude".
How do you know that's how he would respond? Have you asked him? Or do you assume he's just like you and doesn't actually care about others?

You have to be a troll. I can't imagine how you could have 3-4 regular groups for as long as you claim with your attitude.
 

On a tangential but related note (and I think relevant to the thread topic) how do you feel about constraint on character behaviour by social contract? If the table agrees to a PG 13 game/campaign do you not think it out of line to conduct some R rated actions?
I've not said anything so far in this thread about my views on social agreements around content and good taste. Because I play with friends, this can generally be taken for granted.

From time to time players in my game declare actions for their PCs that shock other participants. In my 4e game, two that I remember were from the same player: (1) two Hobgoblins had taken some human children hostage, and the player had his PC daze them with Colour Spray (so as not to hurt the children) and then butchered them mercilessly (the PC was one of the few survivors of a city that had been sacked and razed by a humanoid army); (2) the PCs and a NPC were escaping from a collapsing temple; the same PC as in the previous story knew that the NPC was a demon worshipper; and the PC took advantage of the chaos to kill the NPC with a single Magic Missile.

On both occasions, I (as GM) somewhat saw it coming, though thought it rather ruthless. The other players, more focused on the action of their own PCs, hadn't seen it coming and got a shock.

More recently, in a Classic Traveller session, a PC had been captured and was being tried (impromptu, and by something of a kangaroo court) inside some NPCs landing craft. The player established that she had used her psionic invisibility to help smuggle a grenade onboard with her. I (as GM) wasn't sure what the plan is. When it came time for the PC to speak in her defence, the player established that she stood near the front of the craft, to address the others, while they all sat towards the rear. Then the player declared the throwing of the grenade into that crowd. This knocked most of them out, and breached the hull. The PC escaped, joined up with another - rather mercenary - PC, and they decided to cover up the whole thing by using explosives from the joint PC-NPC mining operation to blow up the small craft (including its unconscious inhabitants), reporting it to the vessel in orbit as the result of a tragic explosives accident.

Another player, whose principal characters were not in the scene (although he did have a secondary character among the victims - in the previous session that character had "defected" to the NPCs) - and who happened to be the player whose PC did the surprising killing in the 4e game - expressed a degree of shock at the ruthlessness of the killing on this occasion.

I have played in convention games - a long time ago now - which involved somewhat shocking or lurid content, but it was pretty clear from the blurb and the set-up that this sort of thing was on the table.

Setting aside issues of phobias or triggering to be dealt with via X-cards or similar, in general I regard the issue of content to be something to be worked out consensually, whether informally (among friends) or more formally (among strangers or in public play settings). I regard this as completely different from a GM-asserted authority to tell a player that their PC is now no longer theirs to play.
 

But again, why bother to play, then? You can be entertained by watching someone else's game, like on YouTube.
Sure; but I can't provide much entertainment in return. And I'm there to entertain others as well as be entertained by them.
 

In their defense, if you watch the video, that is exactly what happens. They just begin assuming that every NPC is going to screw them over.
A wise attitude to take in a world full of dangers.
The result is an outcome that is worse for everybody: the DM’s twist doesn’t land because the players expect it, the repeated betrayals are unrealistic, gameplay becomes somewhat predictable,
These are all avoidable problems, I agree.
and the players are metagaming by assuming every major NPC introduced is secretly evil.
They're not metagaming at all, in that in the fiction their characters would also know they've been hosed a few times and thus their taking an attitude of "don't trust anyone" is entirely justified.
 

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