D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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Where I'm willing to accept much more ebb and flow, I suppose.

With episodic TV, any show tends to become very formulaic in its episode structure unless it's specifically trying to tell a bigger story (e.g. Battlestar Galactica or Game of Thrones). Law and Order solves a case every week. Xena does something heroic every week. Maxwell Smart does something comedically stupid every week. And so on. Thus we-as-audience quickly come to know what to expect; and if that's what we like, we tune in every week to watch that formula play out over the hour (or whatever consistent length) the show runs.

Bigger-story-arc shows tend to be much less formulaic within any one episode, other than often trying to end at a suspenseful moment.

I want my RPGs to be more like those bigger-arc shows, only without the pre-scripted story and known or pre-defined end point.
What are you comparing to what? I'm running a game which is TOTALLY UNSCRIPTED. How is it that going to be 'formulaic'? That isn't even logical! Just like anyone else's game, there's going to be lower tension, rising towards more tension, action, release, etc. Sometimes the players just roll like little devils and crush everything! Sometimes they blow it at the critical moment, or other times they just get noplace fast and end up stuck in some pit with broken dagger and 3 feet of twine. Yes, some systems are designed for more 'episodic' play than others, but that's a style choice related to the sort of game you want to play, not a limitation of narrative play.
 

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UPDATE

The DM is out. He won't be coming back to DM. He sent me an e-mail.

He feels bad about having to bug out. He says 3/4 of the adventure is done. And he thinks the players really want to see it to the end. So he is going to ask the players if they want me to finish the adventure; if I want too. I'm not sure the players love the adventure so much....

Other then that, he wonders if the group wants to stay together. Maybe have me run a short game while they look for another DM. That, sounds a bit fishy as DMs are hard to find.

So it will be up to the players if they want to stay as a group and if they might want me for a DM. I think they are foul weather players that won't want to stick together over the summer anyway.

And I'm not sure I want to do another massive teaching game. I have done two in the last couple months. And both turned out great. I took common players and made them into my type of player. Though for both of those games the players offered no resistance. It made the teaching easy. I'm not so sure this group is up to it.
Well, at least you have the opportunity to start over with a clean slate provided you and the players mtually agree to keep running together.
If they really want to stay a group....and game with me as DM....I could just do a "drop them into the Abyss" adventure. They would love the endless chaos of fighting where they did not have to think...until they run out of things and their characters die.

But.....maybe not. I wonder what the players will say.....
Maybe see if they're interested in starting over from scratch at 1st level.
 

What are you comparing to what?
I'm comparing a game that has both short term and long term ebb and flow in its excitement level to one which (probably artificially) tries to maintain a high excitement level all the time. I forget who it was - @Autumnal maybe? - that I was replying to at the time.
I'm running a game which is TOTALLY UNSCRIPTED. How is it that going to be 'formulaic'? That isn't even logical!
You're right, it isn't; and if you're not trying to force an artificially-heightened level of, or artificially-frequent amount of, excitement then we're probably OK here.
Just like anyone else's game, there's going to be lower tension, rising towards more tension, action, release, etc. Sometimes the players just roll like little devils and crush everything! Sometimes they blow it at the critical moment, or other times they just get noplace fast and end up stuck in some pit with broken dagger and 3 feet of twine. Yes, some systems are designed for more 'episodic' play than others, but that's a style choice related to the sort of game you want to play, not a limitation of narrative play.
Not sure quite how you concluded I was speaking of narrative play. I wasn't, specifically.
 

I've been thinking on this a bit, because I don't think of myself as a fan of individual characters. I don't focus on individual characters much at all. I want the players to have fun of course. I try to set up things that the group will enjoy, I do throw things in for specific characters now and then when it makes sense for what is happening in the campaign. Downtime is pretty exclusively focused on what individual characters are doing.
Yeah, I think one of the differences here is really this. Dungeon World, as a PbtA game, is pretty focused on bringing out the individual traits and building the action on top of who the PCs are. I'm not sure what individual vs group really necessarily means, because DW has 'bonds', which means associations between a PC and someone else, USUALLY another PC (though it could be an NPC as well) that are worth XP to act on. Bonds are also legitimate things for the GM to look at and frame scenes against, or put pressure on with a move. That means, if something happens to the Wizard, the Fighter, who 'swore to protect the wizard' is now also part of whatever happened (I mean, he COULD walk away of course, but even that's something). However, the party is made up of people, they aren't glued at the hip, and sometimes things take a direction that is mostly about the Fighter, and sometimes it might be more about the Wizard.
But I'm not doing this like a TV show. I'm not telling a narrative story, I approach things from a different direction.
Yeah, there's definitely no 'telling a story' in DW, story is emergent, for sure. At most the GM thinks "Well, I need to make a move here. I know, the PCs let that bandit get the slip and they never followed up on that. He's going to come back and kidnap Gramps!" Maybe now I need to know where Gramps actually lives, because it wasn't determined earlier so I ask "Hey, Graaahhh Foecrusher, where does Gramps live?"
I think of the world first, I set the stage. I think of the other actors on the stage, the movers and shakers in the world, the individuals and groups that are going to provide opportunities, obstacles and threats to the group. I try to figure out how to make those aspects important, motivating and interesting. What rumors, potential threats, possible chances for glory or gold can I throw out there. Then I let the players decide what they want to pursue. For that matter during my session 0 I discuss broad themes and type of campaign with the characters, but once we choose a general direction it doesn't get modified by whatever characters the players create.
I just see this as one person creating a menu of options that doesn't particularly address the other participants. DW will START with character creation, before there is any conception of setting at all (though honestly a lot of times people have already decided to play a game of sort X, Y, or Z and perhaps even where it is set). Still, everything is built outwards from the PCs. A PC comes with a few pieces that are going to tell us what we could do with them, bonds, alignment, race, playbook, and then we'll start with asking some questions to construct enough backstory to get started. The GM might ask the fighter "who gave you your signature weapon?" etc. She might even ask a player to describe what the PCs are doing right now. That sort of thing. An opening scene can then be played through, and possibly on into the beginnings of whatever adventure that suggests.

The GM is certainly allowed to have ideas, even 'stuff' that they're interested in using. Ideas ideally should be run by the players, or a hook given that they can decide to act on or not. After the first session the GM is going to do some work on fronts, maybe sketch out a map or two, etc. Personally I don't normally create a campaign front (a major campaign-wide theme) right off. Its better to create couple adventure fronts that set up the things the PCs seem interested in and give them some life. Maybe one is whatever they were heading towards, another could be a possible distraction, or something that another character will especially engage with. Soon the PCs will need R&R, and at that point a Steading can be created (town, village, etc.).
Hopefully we end up at the same place, a fun and engaging game. Maybe we're really saying much the same thing from different perspectives. But my approach feels much more akin to the standard approach to D&D because the nature of the game is different. D&D is DM centered world narrative with as little or as much input from other players as the group wants, DW is shared world narrative. Which goes back to my other thoughts on this: if you bring in systems from other games they have to relate to how D&D actually works. DW feels much more constrained on one true way of running the game, D&D is not and never really has been. And ... now I'm just rambling. Feel free to ignore the last few sentences. :)
I think that your approach is very much what Gygax and Arneson were doing. I think it comes straight out of wargaming/Free Kriegsspiel. Those are essentially systems where everything is pregenerated, and the scenarios are flat out a test of player skill, or in the FK case a literal realistic training exercise. But I don't think that original formula really accounts for 'open world' play! In the early days, if a PC left "Castle Blackmoor" and went elsewhere, there simply wasn't any provision for that at all. Its not just that the GM had to work it out, its that there isn't any provision for it at all. The game doesn't even really have quantifiable measures of play (loot and XP) nor fixed sorts of hazards and things that the GM can judge the nature of unequivocally. Now, obviously modern D&Ds have added skills and whatnot to help with that.

As for DW, its just a different starting point, its neither more nor less open-ended, but it has SOME virtue in that it addresses happenings in terms of their social and psychological dynamics. Its about "what do you want or need?" and then whether you will get it, and how, and what does that mean in terms of your character's personality, his relationships, as well as his physical and economic situation.

I don't think its rambling really. I think there's plenty going on in all these different games. I do, personally, feel like games like DW cut to the chase a bit more, and grab everyone. Like in the old days I'd often find myself rather bored by yet another low level D&D slog where we were more like the local garbage men making our 100th run. D&D always dangled some sort of exciting heroic play just out of reach. That was the essence of 4e, D&D that cuts to the chase (though it still has a lot of levels they were all pretty fun).
 


Absolutely! Ditto with things like being curious what neighbors (in decades gone by, classmates and their families, and teachers) do for Ramadan and Diwali and various New Years. And dairy alternatives! And on and on. Discovery via courtesy is fun, and is one more benefit of being sociable members of a very social species.
Yeah, all the best food someone came along and told me "you gotta try this." Honestly, I know about so much cool food nowadays, I couldn't even possibly eat it all (and my wife and I are vegetarians, so there's a lot of stuff we don't eat).

Your comment on the "reward what you want them to do" goes along with another one. A lot of GMs seem to want to be 'realistic' or some such thing. OK, I mean verisimilitude isn't some sort of BAD thing. The problem is, realistically being a big hero and taking lots of risks is not a super viable strategy for success. I mean, I've started a number of businesses and etc. Your winning strategies are actually more like "be cautious, prepare the heck out of yourself, and then take the smallest risk that works, and only take it when you must. Otherwise just work hard!" I mean, that is effectively what Sun Tze is actually saying if you think about it. Well, that ain't exciting, and if a GM is in this 'realism mode' then there are few opportunities, most of them involve a lot of hard work, and taking crazy exciting risks is a stupid move, like 99.9% of the time. Now, I think everyone kind of knows this, at some point every game scripts its way into some sort of risky adventure stuff but D&D campaigns IMHO all consisted of WAY WAY WAY too much boredom and turtling and too little fun!
 

I can't speak for anyone else, but my players rarely don't know what to do. If they're confused, I'll give them a nudge, but that's more just reminding them of something their PCs would remember or reiterating their options. But I can't remember anyone "faffing around" for any length of time in my games.

This, nor the OP's extreme railroading an punishment, is a reflection on the rules of D&D. Your post comes off as yet another "My preferred game is simply superior" whether that was the intention or not.

The problem is the DM, not the system.
Well, the problem outlined in this thread, I agree, is mostly a DM issue. But the system was NOT helping. Its inherent in this type of system (though there are ways to mitigate). So, yes, for this kind of scenario something like BitD (handles this quite well, been there, done it) or Dungeon World, etc. would totally avoid the whole RRing issue to start with. Its just a true fact, its not elitism.

So, the GM was maybe ham fisted, but the system let them down at the very start.
 

I'm comparing a game that has both short term and long term ebb and flow in its excitement level to one which (probably artificially) tries to maintain a high excitement level all the time. I forget who it was - @Autumnal maybe? - that I was replying to at the time.

You're right, it isn't; and if you're not trying to force an artificially-heightened level of, or artificially-frequent amount of, excitement then we're probably OK here.

Not sure quite how you concluded I was speaking of narrative play. I wasn't, specifically.
Oh, there are times when I could be trying to multi-task my non-multi-tasking brain, lol.
 

Well, the problem outlined in this thread, I agree, is mostly a DM issue. But the system was NOT helping. Its inherent in this type of system (though there are ways to mitigate). So, yes, for this kind of scenario something like BitD (handles this quite well, been there, done it) or Dungeon World, etc. would totally avoid the whole RRing issue to start with. Its just a true fact, its not elitism.

So, the GM was maybe ham fisted, but the system let them down at the very start.
Hence why I have said what I said: rules help address problems. They can't make it so problems are genuinely impossible. But they can make it so that the kinds of things which usually lead to problems simply...don't make sense within the system, and thus aren't generally done.

We can, and IMO should, find a way to learn from this with D&D. Find ways to capture the DMing wisdom that so many learned the hard way, so that future generations don't have to. As with most things in life, nothing can completely replace practical experience, but an awful lot can be done, and can squeeze more benefit out of the practical experience one gets.

This isn't "oh, DW is just a better game, go play that."

It's "this characteristic is really good, and DW shows that we really can get it. D&D should learn from this example, and add new personalized tools to its own toolbox." And, as others have said, there's even already actual effort to spell out principles and core goals ("agendas") of old-school play.

With serious, deliberate, thoughtful effort, we can build D&D up, so the system can have our backs. Because that's the whole point of having systems--that they can be support when support is needed.
 

Hence why I have said what I said: rules help address problems. They can't make it so problems are genuinely impossible. But they can make it so that the kinds of things which usually lead to problems simply...don't make sense within the system, and thus aren't generally done.

We can, and IMO should, find a way to learn from this with D&D. Find ways to capture the DMing wisdom that so many learned the hard way, so that future generations don't have to. As with most things in life, nothing can completely replace practical experience, but an awful lot can be done, and can squeeze more benefit out of the practical experience one gets.

This isn't "oh, DW is just a better game, go play that."

It's "this characteristic is really good, and DW shows that we really can get it. D&D should learn from this example, and add new personalized tools to its own toolbox." And, as others have said, there's even already actual effort to spell out principles and core goals ("agendas") of old-school play.

With serious, deliberate, thoughtful effort, we can build D&D up, so the system can have our backs. Because that's the whole point of having systems--that they can be support when support is needed.
Yeah, again, I don't think that having GM or play principles/agendas is so fundamentally incompatible with D&D, especially given how the OSR community developed principles and agendas to describe their own GMing and play principles. Even one of the OSR principles that commonly got thrown around in its early days was adopted into D&D and became a common mantra in the 5e Community: "rulings, not rules." I understand that some Dungeon World principles may be incompatible with certain playstyles or preferences in D&D, but I don't think that they are inherently incompatible with all playstyles and preferences in D&D.
 

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