D&D General Experience Matters - The benefits of XP

[Clint_L]

There are pros and cons to each style. Classic EXP systems tend to feel empowering to players, who can track their progress and plan accordingly. But they feel very unrealistic, like levelling in a video game, and the things that award experience often don't make a lot of sense (for example, you are usually rewarded the most EXP for successes, rather than failures. Why? I would argue that our failures teach us more). This system is also easy to game; as I mentioned in another thread, the first time I played AD&D the more experienced party brought my character along on a dragon kill, and the EXP gained from the mounds of treasure put him immediately up to level 5. It often favoured certain classes more than others. However, there are more refined versions of EXP-based levelling that avoid these sorts of problems, and if done well this style probably feels the most fun for a lot of players.

Milestone levelling has the advantage of simplicity and keeps the players the appropriate level for the challenges that they are facing. It makes a lot of sense in pre-published adventures, where the characters are on more of a rail so that the levelling process is predictable.

DM fiat (which I use in my home campaign; though it's actually more of a discussion with the players) is even more simple and keeps progression tied to the story beats, while allowing much more freedom. But I think this and milestone both lose some of the sense of progression that comes of EXP being earned and in the player's hands.

 

[S'mon]

There are pros and cons to each style. Classic EXP systems tend to feel empowering to players, who can track their progress and plan accordingly. But they feel very unrealistic, like levelling in a video game, and the things that award experience often don't make a lot of sense (for example, you are usually rewarded the most EXP for successes, rather than failures. Why? I would argue that our failures teach us more).

I felt I levelled up when I got a new job at a more senior rank. I didn't feel I levelled up when I later got turned down for promotion.
They could more accurately be called Glory Points, I guess. Or Achievement Points. You don't get them for study/research/training, you get them for achievements. Achilles gets glory/XP for killing Hector, not for practicing with his spear.

 

[payn]

I felt I levelled up when I got a new job at a more senior rank. I didn't feel I levelled up when I later got turned down for promotion.
They could more accurately be called Glory Points, I guess. Or Achievement Points. You don't get them for study/research/training, you get them for achievements. Achilles gets glory/XP for killing Hector, not for practicing with his spear.

This, only more than just killing things. I dont view the reward for success, nothing for failure as the right perspective. I too see it as an achievement, a "milestone" that has been reached. I also dont need to tell my players to talk to NPCs, pick locks, kill things because its all right there in the rulebook and character sheet. Those are the tools for achieving, now go out and do it.

 

[iserith]

Yeah, "from time to time", for example, when you reach milestones, exactly. Which certainly doesn't have to be "whenever the DM feels like it" as you wrote. A milestone corresponds to a specific group achievement related to the story. It could be freeing a hostage, complete a journey, defeat an BBEG and so on. A DM saying "you all level up today just because it's about time" is not using milestones. So clearly, levelling up by milestone incentivizes completing milestones successfully. Which implies that if the PCs neglect (by choice or chance) to complete a milestone, the DM can definitely consider not to level them up. The downside is that it can become an incentive for the DM to help too much the PCs reach the milestone, in fear that if they don't level up then they'll be unequipped to deal with the next chapter of the campaign.

Lots of DMs do level up the PCs whenever they feel like it and call it "milestone." That doesn't really incentivize going after particular goals, sticking to the plot, or engaging with certain thematic challenges, which was my point. It doesn't really incentivize not caring about leveling up, which I believe was your assertion. I'm all for actual milestone XP which is a concrete goal, and it's best in my view if it's transparent to the players so they can align themselves to it and make decisions accordingly. When the game goal of leveling up is aligned with the characters' fictional goals, the game tends to work better in my experience.

 

[Clint_L]

I felt I levelled up when I got a new job at a more senior rank. I didn't feel I levelled up when I later got turned down for promotion.
They could more accurately be called Glory Points, I guess. Or Achievement Points. You don't get them for study/research/training, you get them for achievements. Achilles gets glory/XP for killing Hector, not for practicing with his spear.

I'm not talking about levelling up, I'm talking about earning experience, which presumably happened before you "levelled" up, and which presumably involved a lot of trial and error. In fact, getting turned down for a job or a promotion has been, for me, when I've learned the most. Similarly, I think, for example, a failed heist would teach the characters a lot more about what to do and not to do next time, than a successful one.

For milestone...it's tricky. The question is always: what milestones matter? You can peg it to games played easily enough, though levelling might then come at strange times in the story, depending on how it unfolds. Pegging to each character's personal goals can lead to uneven advancement and can be hard to quantify. Pegging it to specific adventure moments can feel like railroading (e.g. you hit level 2 when you find the hidden staircase in the attic - Death House) - I think it works in a heavily plotted out campaign, like running a published adventure, but is harder in a campaign driven more by different character goals.

In my school campaigns, which are short, it's games played. In my home campaign, we just have a conversation - does it feel like the right time to level up?

 

[iserith]

For milestone...it's tricky. The question is always: what milestones matter? You can peg it to games played easily enough, though levelling might then come at strange times in the story, depending on how it unfolds. Pegging to each character's personal goals can lead to uneven advancement and can be hard to quantify. Pegging it to specific adventure moments can feel like railroading (e.g. you hit level 2 when you find the hidden staircase in the attic - Death House) - I think it works in a heavily plotted out campaign, like running a published adventure, but is harder in a campaign driven more by different character goals.

Milestone XP is in my view best for plot-based games or for sandboxes with party-driven goals. It's also not railroading. It's rewarding behavior that supports the game everyone agreed to play together. Nobody is being coerced or tricked.

In a D&D 5e game that I am currently playing, at the end of the session, we have a discussion about our accomplishments. (The XP/level tables have been modified to much lower XP totals, but at the same sort of default progress rate.)

Gain 1 xp for each of the following questions that you can answer 'Yes' to.​

​

Did I play to a trait, ideal, bond, or flaw? Which one? (Individual)​

Did we learn something new about the adventure location? What was it? (Everyone)​

Did we acquire a rare or unique treasure? What was it? (Everyone)​

Did we defeat a notable enemy? Who or what was it? (Everyone)​

Did we achieve our goal for the session? (Everyone - this goal is set at the end of the previous session.)​

Did I face death myself, or pull a companion back from the brink? (Individual)​

This definitely impacts the sorts of decisions we make as a team. We're constantly looking for new learning opportunities, interesting treasures, and a notable enemy, plus we're laser-focused on our goal. We tend to skip over anything that isn't those things. This includes combats that can be avoided since they aren't worth XP anyway (unless it contains a notable enemy). We also hilariously step all over each other trying to heal a downed comrade.

As an example, in the last session, our goal was to steal the throne of the kobold king so we can turn it into a toilet in our guildhall. We were sweating bullets as the kobolds stymied our progress to getting it before session's end. We took significant risks to accomplish the goal and did! Unfortunately, the kobolds were successful in bogging us down so that we did not defeat a notable enemy along the way. So next session we'll definitely try to get back on track with that.

 

[Clint_L]

Another potential positive for classical EXP is that it becomes its own little sub-game. Tracking your EXP, estimating how long to the next level, figuring out how to maximize it - that becomes its own thing.

 

[nevin]

Why advocate for a rules system when we can use the greatest asset D&D has; the judgement of the DM?

I'm almost always for DM Fiat but here on this subject I'll tell you. Most DM's use milestone leveling to keep thier table at the correct level they think they should be for whatever Boss fight is coming. It's lazy, Arbitrary and unrewarding.. I know everyone doesn't do it that way but IME most do. EP awarded after encounnters, or Milestone's where players get thier accumulated EP at certain gated points woks because they know exactly what they got and why. It just feels more organic and fair.

 

[payn]

I'm almost always for DM Fiat but here on this subject I'll tell you. Most DM's use milestone leveling to keep thier table at the correct level they think they should be for whatever Boss fight is coming. It's lazy, Arbitrary and unrewarding.. I know everyone doesn't do it that way but IME most do. EP awarded after encounnters, or Milestone's where players get thier accumulated EP at certain gated points woks because they know exactly what they got and why. It just feels more organic and fair.

It's really funny reading this because I feel the same way about players in individual XP. The play becomes very lazy and nonsensical in the pursuit of leveling.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, "from time to time", for example, when you reach milestones, exactly. Which certainly doesn't have to be "whenever the DM feels like it" as you wrote. A milestone corresponds to a specific group achievement related to the story. It could be freeing a hostage, complete a journey, defeat an BBEG and so on. A DM saying "you all level up today just because it's about time" is not using milestones. So clearly, levelling up by milestone incentivizes completing milestones successfully. Which implies that if the PCs neglect (by choice or chance) to complete a milestone, the DM can definitely consider not to level them up. The downside is that it can become an incentive for the DM to help too much the PCs reach the milestone, in fear that if they don't level up then they'll be unequipped to deal with the next chapter of the campaign.

Doesn't that then just become another railroading technique - the players have to stay on-mission or on-script because if they don't they won't level?

No thanks.