D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Yaarel]

It really comes down to the skill system and how it is implemented. Especially in 5e where Combat is just another proficiency test v target defense DC (AC)

Rogues get skills which mean they have both combat proficiency and non-combat proficiency

for Spell casters most spells get autosuccess (no proficiency role needed) in both combat and non-combat utility.

and because Rogues get sneak attack and cunning and Spellcasters get cantrip spam, Fighters dont get to dominate in combat and get screwed on non-combat skills too

"Balance" mainly means that classes contribute equally in combat.

If the Fighter is balanced in combat, but has little or no competence in noncombat, it can be painful in gaming groups that emphasize noncombat.

There is even a sense that the skills that Fighter has in 5e, were gained begrudgedly.

 

[Incenjucar]

That would require someone putting their money where their mouth is and designing a solution.

If nobody has made one by 2024, I might take up the challenge. Busy with a much more complex class right now, and I can't spare a distraction 8,000 words into a project.

 

[TheSword]

Using a spell slot to deal extra radiant damage on hit is still using spells.

Which spell are they using to do it?

 

[TheSword]

You know, if you were approaching this as "Wow, casters are so much weaker than they were in 3.5!" I don't think anyone would even bat an eye. You are right, casters are a lot weaker than they were in 3.5

But, at the end of the day, you aren't getting the problem. Sure, maybe the fighter isn't doing 1d8+8, maybe they are doing 2d12+3d6+12. But, at the end of the day, they are only capable of dealing damage one attack roll at a time. If a fighter comes to a door, then their plan is to open the door and attack whatever is on the other side. And if they lose initiative, then they will attack on their turn. And if they win initiative, then they will attack on their turn. And if the enemy outnumbers the fighter... they will attack on their turn.

I'm actually reminded of a situation a friend of mine dealt with. He was transported to a demiplane to fight by a powerful being. He was a high level cleric. He was fighting zombies. An actual endless horde of zombies. We stopped keeping track of how many zombies he killed. He unleashed all his destroy undeads, all his castings of blade barrier, then started in on spirit guardians.

A fighter wouldn't have had any option other than attacking, one zombie at a time. My friend's cleric never even got touched by a single zombie, while killing hundreds of them. A fighter in the same situation? Likely would have been killed, because every turn he'd have been attacked by 9 zombies, without fail.

Casters have more options. They don't have to just attack AC. They don't have to just deal damage. They can do those things, and do them incredibly effectively, but that is not the ONLY thing they can do. It is the only thing pure martials can do. They have no other tools.

I think this is exactly the kind of thing that bothers me. You described a character on a featureless Demi-plane and attacked by 9 zombies a round. It’s essentially the white room theory. No buildings or choke points to hold, no tactics to employ. No mobility to consider. It the equivalent of playing a game of W40k on a featureless field. And it only happens in homebrewed games.

Have you considered that maybe the DM set that particularly unique situation up purely to make the cleric feel good? That it was a sop for their ego?

Yes, well done. If a cleric is in a featureless plane with infinite zombies all around and they have prepared anti-undead spells then yes they can deal a tremendous amount of damage. You win. Now I’ll go back to playing D&D sessions that aren’t custom geared to allow one class to dominate.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think this is exactly the kind of thing that bothers me. You described a character on a featureless Demi-plane and attacked by 9 zombies a round. It’s essentially the white room theory. No buildings or choke points to hold, no tactics to employ. No mobility to consider. It the equivalent of playing a game of W40k on a featureless field. And it only happens in homebrewed games.

Have you considered that maybe the DM set that particularly unique situation up purely to make the cleric feel good? That it was a sop for their ego?

Yes, well done. If a cleric is in a featureless plane with infinite zombies all around and they have prepared anti-undead spells then yes they can deal a tremendous amount of damage. You win. Now I’ll go back to playing D&D.

We used to call it, "Planet Bowling Ball" back when I played 40k.

 

[Eubani]

I have never seen martial character enact a single action that had more effect on an encounter than a single casting of Hypnotic Pattern.

 

[TheSword]

I have never seen martial character enact a single action that had more effect on an encounter than a single casting of Hypnotic Pattern.

Kill the wizard casting Hypnotic pattern?

Or simply wake the people who failed their saving throws. Action surge and a level 5 fighter can slap 5 people for a point of damage and get them back in the fight. Only four people and be can slap the wizard too for lolz

 

[Minigiant]

I think the first step to solving the problem is to categorize.

What are the archetypes of non-magical purely one "class" warriors?

Here is my list.

1. Artist The Warrior who focuses on creativity and innovation to come up with new styles
   1. Key Ability: Intelligence
   2. Important Skill: Knowledge skills
   3. Common features: Improvised Attacks,
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: Low. Can transition to skill monkey or rely on invention to bypass obstacles
2. Brute- The Warrior who focuses of pure strength and power to break obstacles
   1. Key Ability: Strength
   2. Important Skills: Athletics
   3. Common features: Super Strength, Super Toughness, Rage
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: High. The Brute has to be as strong as Everything is everything
3. Bully- The warrior who focuses of ruthlessness and intimation to break spirits
   1. Key Ability: Strength Charisma
   2. Important Skills: Intimidation Athletics, Persuasion
   3. Common features: Aura of Intimidation. Super Strength, Super Recovery,
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: Low. The inanimate can't be bullied. Can transition to skill monkey or rely on invention to bypass obstacles
4. Knight- The Warrior whose devotion to a warrior culture or religious idea forces them to hone their strength
   1. Key Ability: Varies depending on culture
   2. Important Skills: Varies depending on culture
   3. Common features: Shiny Armor or Half Nekkidness
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: High. Eiter they dip into some sort of mystical force or a supernatural force gifts them magic items
5. Juggernaut- The Warrior who focuses on defense and toughest to withstand onslaughts
   1. Key Ability: Constitution Wisdom
   2. Important Skills: "Endurance"
   3. Common features: Super Toughness Super Recovery Super Armor
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: High. They have to be able to take anything the world throws out
6. Speedster-The Warrior who focuses on speed and agility to bypass obstacles
   1. Key Ability: Dexterity
   2. Important Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth,
   3. Common features: Super Speed. Super Recovery.
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: Moderate. Depends on how fast they have to be.
7. Technician- The Warrior who focuses on perfect execution and accuracy to perform the already perfected
   1. Key Ability: Dexterity, Intelligence
   2. Important Skills: Performance
   3. Common features: Super Accuracy
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: Varied. As dependent as the establishment.
8. Trickster- The warrior who focuses on deception and trickster to confuse and rattle foes
   1. Key Ability: Charisma
   2. Important Skills: Deception Athletics Persuasion
   3. Common features: Varies. Trick Shots.
   4. Reliance on Supernatural at high levels: Low. The inanimate can't be tricked. Can transition to skill monkey or rely on invention to bypass obstacles

Based on my list,the Artist, Bully, and Trickster can go without magic or supernatural by leaning on being a skill user.

The Juggernauts will reliant on magic and supernatural more often for hardness, immunity, and resistance.

 

[Emberashh]

Ive said before that so much of this sounds people are just telegraphing that they have toxic players at their tables that play casters and go out of their way to hog the spotlight at every chance, even when they don't have to.

And I suppose it shouldn't surprise when people wouldn't want any steps taken to mitigate or eliminate that behavior, and instead just want that for themselves.

Teamwork dumb, embrace being the selfish specialist special snowflake that none of the other selfish special snowflakes are allowed to trod on.

 

[Minigiant]

Ive said before that so much of this sounds people are just telegraphing that they have toxic players at their tables that play casters and go out of their way to hog the spotlight at every chance, even when they don't have to.

And I suppose it shouldn't surprise when people wouldn't want any steps taken to mitigate or eliminate that behavior, and instead just want that for themselves.

Teamwork dumb, embrace being the selfish specialist special snowflake that none of the other selfish special snowflakes are allowed to trod on.

It's less toxicity and more effectiveness.

D&D fans are gamers and will focus on having the character with the best chances attempt.

Thebard will do all the talking. The wizard will magic away any problem they can afford to.

It's up to the DM to disrupt "the plan" and D&D has never taught that. The DM has to learn by experience or mentorship.

So the "All combat, No levers" class, the fighter, is as good as your DM is experienced.