D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

Absolutely true. But I'd say look at most societies near worship of Powerful martial hero's and it would be easy to say that the fighter would start with larger numbers of follower's who trusted their god granted ability while classes like mages and clerics with thier secretive ways and scary powers wouldn't be as trusted. Especially Mages and evil clerics. Good Clerics at least get to promise you an awesome afterlife.

In High level play warriors start out with the hero worship and it's thiers to use or lose. Other Classes have to work harder to get the same thing. If your assuming people in these settings think like people in the real world. If you study history this is why leaders kill or ruin a lot of military types who don't play ball and say what they want to hear. Hero's can gather power really fast. George Washington? Andrew Jackson and many other famous historical figures weren't even in the running or considered good enough for the positions they took after assuming "HEROIC' status.

I don't see this as a solution, because I don't want to play my fighter and his 2,000 loyal followers in the adventure. I want to play my fighter.

This is such a distinct thing I often wonder how people miss it. Yes, societal power is a thing that exists, but there is a fundamentally different sort of power we are talking about. Personal, real, hard power. The President of the United States has a lot of power, but in terms of the level of impact, a person who can blow up buildings from a mile away by thinking hard at them is TERRIFYING. Seriously, don't read Marvel and DC, read alternative superhero literature. The idea of incredible personal power and how it warps societies is a common thing they explore. Most governments stay in power in those settings because the heroes LET THEM.

 

[nevin]

Or ignore this thread and play the game we've had since the 1970's? My opinion may not be the same as yours. I will say I haven't seen a game that tried it your way grow much. But I wish you well and will happily give it a try if someone breaks that code . but for now I'll just keep trudging along enjoying my game. Even when I play a martial.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You did miss one thing. Taking away the Christmas Tree Effect hurt Martials more than spellcasters. Martials had their toys taken away. Ive played in and run games where the martials had bags of toys just to deal with the stuff you talk about. But some decided it was hokey to have magic gear and magic toys that actually did things so we now have attunement. Arguably the worst thing DND has ever done to itself. Most magic items for Wizards are useless or emergency I'm out of spell things. My wizards give them to thier followers and sell them because the money is worth more than the magic item to them. Martials on the other had do at higher levels need ways to bypass or overcome high level challenges that require magic. giveing them extra feats or abilities can work. So can deleting attunement and letting them have toys. it still boggles my mind that anyone thought taking toys away from players was more fun.

If my character is only viable because I have a magic sword and magic armor, my character is not viable. I don't play a fighter to be a vehicle for cool magical weapons that can make anyone a hero, I play a fighter to be a hero.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've never seen a fighter struggle to clear what I call trash mobs. EVER. Unless you equate more rounds as struggle that doesn't even make sense.

What happens during those more rounds? More attacks are made. What happens when more attacks are made? More hp is lost.

People tend to forget that fighters and martials DON'T have infinite Hit Points. A 20th level martial tends to have 165 hp (except barbarian). This is one of those things people forget about it seems. An orog deals 10 damage per hit. Let's say you have your fighter with their longsword, making 4 attacks for 4d8+28 or 46 damage. That kills one of them a round, so let's say you fight 10 of them. 10 CR 2's versus one level 20.

They get 18 attacks the first round, 16 the second, 14 the third, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 for a total of 90 attacks. They have a +6, so let's say you have some fancy +2 plate and have an AC of 22. That means they have a 25% hit rate. 90/4 = 22.5 attacks that will hit for.... 220 damage.

Dead fighter.

 

[nevin]

so what's the difference between having a magic helm of teleportation that let's you cast it 3 times a day vs being able to cast it three times a day. I see no difference. Are navy seals weenies because they have the best toys on earth? I get no logic from your statement.

But by your argument my mage should be able to melee the dragon to death as well otherwise he's not viable.......

 

[Gammadoodler]

I get. And most of the posts in it have been asking for the Roman legion to have special spears that are as effective as machine guns but don't use bullets.

No. They haven't. Stop it.

Or..

Prove it.

 

[HammerMan]

I get. And most of the posts in it have been asking for the Roman legion to have special spears that are as effective as machine guns but don't use bullets.

I have not seen that request. I have seen mine and other to have a martial class on par with a full casters for options and abilities

 

[nevin]

I guess that's part of it. I've never seen a level 20 fighter in +2 plate. Seems silly if the wizard can cast wish that the fighter has such terrible magic items.

 

[HammerMan]

I hope you're talking about 3pp and/or homebrew solutions. I find it strange that this thread is even in the OneD&D forum. It has nothing to do with OneD&D or WotC.

It is about wanting WoTC to fix this in 1d&d

 

[Chaosmancer]

so what's the difference between having a magic helm of teleportation that let's you cast it 3 times a day vs being able to cast it three times a day. I see no difference. Are navy seals weenies because they have the best toys on earth? I get no logic from your statement.

But by your argument my mage should be able to melee the dragon to death as well otherwise he's not viable.......

Okay, the mage can cast teleportation three times per day with his own power and will. The fighter can activate the helmet to do the same.

Now, someone steals the helmet. What happens? The mage can cast teleportation three times per day... and the fighter can't. Because their ability to teleport was dependent on the helmet. "Well, okay, I'll steal the mage's ability to teleport!" How? To teleport they need the ability to speak, that's it. You can't steal their voice.


You argument is like saying you don't see the difference between getting in an airplane and flying around the world and the ability to just... fly around the world at 1,000;s of mph whenever you want. One of those things makes you a normal person, the other makes you a superhero. And getting in a plane doesn't make you a superhero.