D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

The issue is more big Indie devs are headed designwise by the people with the same mentality as those in WOTC.

Tales of the Valiant is sure following WotC"s lead....

As someone who has never looked at PF2e seriously, can anyone describe how Paizo handles high-level martials? Do they fly and toss mountains?

 

[Minigiant]

Tales of the Valiant is sure following WotC"s lead....

As someone who has never looked at PF2e seriously, can anyone describe how Paizo handles high-level martials? Do they fly and toss mountains?

Short answer: No.

 

[Remathilis]

i do find something very fascinating about the rejection of the idea that fighters could achieve supernatural effects with just fantastical training - it's also (almost certainly unintentionally) a rejection of the wizard.

i mean, think about it for a second. wizards don't have supernatural bloodlines (or else they'd be sorcerers). they don't get their powers from a god (or else they'd be clerics) or patron (or else they'd be warlocks). they don't derive their powers from the forces of nature (or else they'd be druids). they study. they research. they learn, and train, and that learning and training eventually lets them literally conjure wishes. so...why can't a fighter train themselves to become fantastically powerful like a wizard can?

Wizards study magic. Magic gives them magical powers. They tap into the Weave or whatever you want to call it and manipulate magical energies. It's not the reading that causes magic to happen, it's the fact reading taps into a power source that does.

I got no problem with fighter's studying and training to tap into some hidden power source that does supernatural things. Just name the source. Music of Creation. Primal Spirits. Ki. Psionics. Magic.

 

[Remathilis]

Short answer: No.

I realize there is a lot of "following in D&D's footsteps" amongst the larger RPG companies, but if WotC, KP, and Paizo hasn't felt it necessary to load the fighter up with supernatural powers, I seriously wonder if this whole debate isn't a tempest in a teapot...

 

[Emberashh]

It is if it's explicit. Otherwise it's a non sequitur.

But ultimately my question was answered.

When Bert asked you to refer to their assumptions, your reply that under those assumptions there is no mythic martial was simply false.

It was just a thing you wanted to say.

I don't mind that you wanted to say it. But it doesn't follow from assumptions included in Bert's post.

I could also say this is all just stuff you "want to say" when you ignore what I was saying.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Tales of the Valiant is sure following WotC"s lead....

As someone who has never looked at PF2e seriously, can anyone describe how Paizo handles high-level martials? Do they fly and toss mountains?

Doing wild things without explicit magic is pretty baked into the system. With just skill feats you can scare someone to death with intimidation, grapple gargantuan creatures with athletics, hide in plain sight with stealth, be immune to fall damage with acrobatics, etc. There's a dedication feat you can take to resurrect someone with Medicine.

All those are nonmagical from what I recall.

 

[Incenjucar]

I realize there is a lot of "following in D&D's footsteps" amongst the larger RPG companies, but if WotC, KP, and Paizo hasn't felt it necessary to load the fighter up with supernatural powers, I seriously wonder if this whole debate isn't a tempest in a teapot...

At some point someone wondered why you would ever need a Western fantasy setting other than Greyhawk. Only one way to find out!

 

[Minigiant]

I realize there is a lot of "following in D&D's footsteps" amongst the larger RPG companies, but if WotC, KP, and Paizo hasn't felt it necessary to load the fighter up with supernatural powers, I seriously wonder if this whole debate isn't a tempest in a teapot...

It's 3 parts

1) The lead designers of WOTC, KP, Paizo, and other big D&D publishers don't really like supernatural martials. At best is many of them dislike super casters as well and nerf and adjust them like Paizo did.

2) The fans who prefer supernatural martial run younger in age than the lead desiners of most big RPG companies. And this group is heavy of the "Just got into D&D side".

3) Fans of supernatural martials are also ig fans of other styles of RPGs. So focus is split between the D&D clones, clones of other stuff, and new styles of RPGs.

 

[Clint_L]

The fighter needs to get in melee, and the orogs have Aggressive allowing a bonus action dash.



Using Action Surge and Second wind on a trash mob fight? 10 Orogs is an easy encounter for a party of 20th level characters. I was told such a fight shouldn't even challenge the fighter. @nevin specifically said "I've never seen a fighter struggle to clear what I call trash mobs. EVER. Unless you equate more rounds as struggle that doesn't even make sense."

I showed that that fight doesn't challenge the most basic of fighters - they can't even get the fighter to half health, even when given the most optimal circumstances.

Now, immediately, we need to have used their special abilities, need their subclass, they should have raised their con above 16, and they needed to have taken the toughness feat, and really they've made some bad choices....

For a group of CR 2 enemies. A fight that should have stopped being a serious challenge ten levels ago. Doesn't all this sudden panic over the precise build... exactly illustrate my point? These enemies are so weak they drop in a single turn against the fighter, and yet... that's not enough to keep them alive, let alone for them to conquer without struggle.

Why should that fight have stopped being a serious challenge ten levels ago? 10 CR2 opponents is a tough fight! In fact, according to the DMG that fight has a rating of "deadly" for a single level 20 character.

And "sudden panic"? Actually doing the math, while giving your scenario every advantage, indicates "sudden panic"? Hate to break it to you, but your math was obviously wrong, I just spelled it out. No, the fighter doesn't die, as you alleged, they easily triumph. It isn't close.

Also, "need" to take a sub-class? Taking a sub-class is mandatory - every level 20 character has a sub-class. But to give your scenario the benefit of the doubt I chose the most basic sub-class. As noted. Also, I didn't have them take toughness or raise their con past 16, even though a level 20 tanky fighter would probably do both those things. But no, I made the fighter about as bad as I could, just to give your scenario the best chance possible. And left them standing in the centre of the room (though I knew it wouldn't make a difference).

But yeah, they used second wind and action surge, because those are a basic part of the fighter package. However, even without those, the fighter sill wins and is not in danger - it just takes two more rounds and they finish with 56 HP instead of 94 HP (unless they are smart and toy with that last orog for a bit to let themselves heal back up to 92 HP, but I think we've established that this fighter is an idiot). And what is the point of this hypothesis, again - are we comparing how different classes do against trash mobs while not using core class features? Okay, so should we compare to a paladin who refuses to do smites and a druid who doesn't shapeshift?

I see, so you see "not even a struggle" as losing 50% of your health and activating all of your special abilities. Of course, I note that with no action surge, no second wind, and at 50% of their health, the fighter sure would struggle if the enemy had them fight something more deadly for the second encounter. Or does the fighter get tot take a short rest after every fight and has infinite healing surges too?

Like, I don't even need to argue your encounter. Sure, we'll use your version. It highlights my point just as well.

Does it? Your point was that they couldn't do it. But no - that fighter easily tanked a deadly encounter by themselves, even though they have minimal gear, a lousy build, and zero tactical sense. So what is your argument - that that isn't good enough? Now you are shifting goalposts, to argue that (apparently) it should have been even easier for them than it actually is. They shouldn't even have to take a short rest after single-handled stomping a platoon of orogs! (I mean, if played with any sense this guy wouldn't actually need a rest, but, again, we seem to be assuming this is the worst fighter in the world...and he still easily wins).

Edit: and, again, this is a crappy level 20 fighter. Imagine what a normally built and geared fighter does in that scenario, if the crappy fighter handles it no problem.

 

[Clint_L]

i do find something very fascinating about the rejection of the idea that fighters could achieve supernatural effects with just fantastical training - it's also (almost certainly unintentionally) a rejection of the wizard.

i mean, think about it for a second. wizards don't have supernatural bloodlines (or else they'd be sorcerers). they don't get their powers from a god (or else they'd be clerics) or patron (or else they'd be warlocks). they don't derive their powers from the forces of nature (or else they'd be druids). they study. they research. they learn, and train, and that learning and training eventually lets them literally conjure wishes. so...why can't a fighter train themselves to become fantastically powerful like a wizard can?

They 100% can multi-class if they want to, or be an eldritch knight. But if they want all the benefits of being a level 20 wizard, or druid, or cleric, or bard, then they can't also have all the benefits of being a level 20 fighter.