D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

Well at levels 1-4 they kind of do. They do a good bit more damage than Fighters, Rogues, and barbarians.... and that's before you include flurry.
Do they?

Level 3 berserker barbarian does 24 damage and hits more often due to reckless attacks, while still tanking considerably better than any monk. More if there's a cleave opportunity. That's better than any monk subclass can do (15.5); even with FoB the best monk gets to 22, I believe. But let's leave subclasses out of it, so no need to look at how badly an echo knight would crush any monk subclass, etc.

So, just looking at the base classes, even with just a single attack any barbarian is hitting for a base average of 12, but much more often than the monk due to advantage, while tanking better than the monk. For example, against an orc, a baseline level 3 barbarian with a single attack, reckless, hits for just under 10.1DPR, and survives for 9 rounds.

Against that same orc, any level 3 monk using an axe, dagger, and martial arts hits for just over 10 DPR and survives for 5 rounds. So the monk actually does need FoB to pull ahead in offence...for three rounds.

Okay, so maybe not barbarians. Base paladin at level 3 does lag behind the monk, with neither using special attacks, but only by 2 DPR. However, they also crush the monk for survivability - they trade a small amount of offence for almost triple the longevity. (If we do allow for FoB, then that opens the door to smite, and the paladin's DPR crushes the monks) - Edit: no it doesn't - did the math; monk still edges out paladin.

Fighter, assuming duelling and flex, lags the monk by just 1 DPR or so, but has survivability similar to the paladin.

Generic level 3 rogue with, say, rapier and dagger is doing 17 DPR, so the monk is losing that match-up without using FoB, which lets them pull ahead for three rounds. Survivability traits are basically the same...though with cunning action as a baseline ability, the rogue will be able to avoid far more attacks, since our monk needs to use their bonus action for an unarmed strike.

So unless I am missing something, the baseline monk has about the same DPR at level 3 compared to a baseline barbarian, a bit more than a paladin or fighter, and a bit less than a rogue. But it's all pretty close, so...a good bit more damage? I'm not seeing it.
 
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Yes. But they can use ranged weapons well. Not using them is not using the full potential.
Can they, use them well, though? They have high dex, but that's it. They have limited access to ranged weapons, and can't use any of their special abilities at range, unlike a ranger, who is built for ranged attacks, a rogue, a dex fighter, etc. They don't get archery style. The monk gets just their basic attack action at range, which is not great DPR.

Obviously, if you have no better option then yes, use a ranged attack. But acting like ranged attacks are anything but a last resort for monks is ridiculous. Ranged attacks are what monks do when they have no good options that let them fight in melee.
 
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The fact that you are talking about the intended fantasy being at odds with the reality of their features? That thing? That's the thing we've been talking about as a bad thing. If the reality at the table is the make is better off not entering into melee with a melee combatant, then the reality for the designers is they messed up.
Maybe the problem is the intended fantasy and not the features that define the playstyle?

And I still disagree that it isn't the intended fantasy, I just think that it not being that "unarmed combatant" fantasy doesn't mean you can't pull out a crossbow at least once in a while. You still make use of your extra speed and deflect missiles at level 3. And the new UA lets you do something like shoot at someone and if it hits, you can run up to them and finish them off or if it misses, you can retreat.
Fundamentally, any warrior class should be able to chase down the mooks and dismantle them. Monks don't blow the other classes out of the water with their damage. They have better mobility than some, sure, but a Barbarian can easily reach 45 to ft of movement too.
Monks have the ability to spread their damage budget out more evenly. And they obviously have more movement to support them going from one mook to another and chasing them down rather than sacrificing a dash to do something similar.

Monk's damage is also, again, actually pretty high now from the UA. Even a 1DPR difference can often be the difference betwern killing something and it getting to do another round of damage in return. Not to mention that since they use multiple attacks and damage dice, their damage will skew closer to the average than the swingier single-attack martials.
 

Can they, use them well, though? They have high dex, but that's it. They have limited access, and can't use any of their special abilities at range, unlike a ranger, who is built for ranged attacks, a rogue, a dex fighter, etc. They don't get archery style. The monk gets just their basic attack action at range, which is not great DPR.

Obviously, if you have no better option then yes, use a ranged attack. But acting like ranged attacks are anything but a last resort for monks is ridiculous. Ranged attacks are what monks do when they have no good options that let them fight in melee.
As I said:

Dodge, step of the wind, and even flurry of blows is not tied to monk weapons.

The Kensai gets extra abilities for ranged.

Extra mobility guarantees unlimited kiting.
 

As I said:

Dodge, step of the wind, and even flurry of blows is not tied to monk weapons.

The Kensai gets extra abilities for ranged.

Extra mobility guarantees unlimited kiting.
A) until they run out of ki
B) for all those scenarios in which you are fighting morons in a wide open space with unlimited time. i.e. maybe against AI mobs in World of Warcraft, not against a DM-controlled creature who recognizes they are being kited.

For example, go through Lost Mine of Phandelver and find me the encounter where a DM has no choice but to let a creature be sloooowly kited to death.

A monk relying on ranged attacks is basically as scary as a bandit. Like, they might hit sometimes for a bit of damage, but they’re not exactly a priority.
 

Do they?

Level 3 berserker barbarian does 24 damage and hits more often due to reckless attacks, while still tanking considerably better than any monk. More if there's a cleave opportunity. That's better than any monk subclass can do (15.5); even with FoB the best monk gets to 22, I believe. But let's leave subclasses out of it, so no need to look at how badly an echo knight would crush any monk subclass, etc.

So, just looking at the base classes, even with just a single attack any barbarian is hitting for a base average of 12, but much more often than the monk due to advantage, while tanking better than the monk. For example, against an orc, a baseline level 3 barbarian with a single attack, reckless, hits for just under 10.1DPR, and survives for 9 rounds.

Against that same orc, any level 3 monk using an axe, dagger, and martial arts hits for just over 10 DPR and survives for 5 rounds. So the monk actually does need FoB to pull ahead in offence...for three rounds.

Okay, so maybe not barbarians. Base paladin at level 3 does lag behind the monk, with neither using special attacks, but only by 2 DPR. However, they also crush the monk for survivability - they trade a small amount of offence for almost triple the longevity. (If we do allow for FoB, then that opens the door to smite, and the paladin's DPR crushes the monks).

Fighter, assuming duelling and flex, lags the monk by just 1 DPR or so, but has survivability similar to the paladin.

Generic level 3 rogue with, say, rapier and dagger is doing 17 DPR, so the monk is losing that match-up without using FoB, which lets them pull ahead for three rounds. Survivability traits are basically the same...though with cunning action as a baseline ability, the rogue will be able to avoid far more attacks, since our monk needs to use their bonus action for an unarmed strike.

So unless I am missing something, the baseline monk has about the same DPR at level 3 compared to a baseline barbarian, a bit more than a paladin or fighter, and a bit less than a rogue. But it's all pretty close, so...a good bit more damage? I'm not seeing it.
Let me run my own numbers here:

Against our classic orc foe.

Barbarian (3rd level - THW Graze)
THW Barbarian with 16 str (3rd level). No subclasses as you mentioned. If we aren't using FoB I probably won't use Rage either. We will go with a Greatsword with Graze.

Assuming +5 reckless attack versus AC 15, dealing 2d6 + 3 on a hit, 3 on a miss. .0975 * 17 + .70 * 10 + .2025 * 3 = 1.6575 + 7.0 + 0.6075 = ~9.3 DPR.

Monk (3rd level - Handaxe/Dagger Vex/Nick)
Monk with our classic Handaxe Dagger Combo. (1d6 + 3, 1d6 + 3, 1d4). +5 to hit

.05 * 10 + .5 * 6.5 + .05 * 10 + .5 * 6.5 + .45 [first vex attack misses] * (.05 * 5 + .5 * 2.5) + .55 [first vex attack hits] * (.0975 * 5 + .7 * 2.5) = .5 + 3.25 + .5 + 3.25 + 0.675 + 1.230625 = ~9.4 DPR

Rogue (3rd level Shortsword/Scimitar Vex/Nick)

We will use our bonus action to get the advantage we need for our sneak attack. Then we will use a Shortsword/Scimitar nick combo.

1d6 + 3 + 2d6, 1d6

.0975 * 24 + .7 * 13.5 + .2025 [first vex attack misses] * (.05 * 7 + .5 * 3.5) + .7975 [vex attack hits, triggers new advantage] * (.0975 * 7 + .7 * 3.5) = 2.34 + 9.45 + 0.42525 + 2.49816875 = ~14.7 DPR

Fighter (3rd level Dueling Longsword Flex)

1d10 + 5

.05 * 16 + .5 * 10.5 = 6.05 DPR

ClassDPR
Barb (Graze THF)9.3
Monk (Nick TWF)9.4
Rogue (Nick TWF)14.7
Fighter (Flex SB)6.05

So there we go, yeah I was totally wrong. Wow, the rogue actually does great damage at 3rd level, and the monk has definitely fallen behind at this point without the expending of resources
 

I disagree about not using rage - not the same at all. Barbarians basically always have rage up, so I factored that in - it isn't limited in anything like the way FoB is. Also, couldn't we improve the fighter's DPR by giving them the two weapon fighting style, now I think about it?

If we factor subclasses in, the monk's plight becomes more pronounced. Monk subclasses generally don't increase their DPR much until high levels, but if you are going for a DPR build, then fighter, barbarian, rogue, and paladin all offer subclasses that give an immediate boost to offence (i.e. echo knight, berserker, assassin, and vengeance, among others).
 
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A) until they run out of ki
B) for all those scenarios in which you are fighting morons in a wide open space with unlimited time. i.e. maybe against AI mobs in World of Warcraft, not against a DM-controlled creature who recognizes they are being kited.

For example, go through Lost Mine of Phandelver and find me the encounter where a DM has no choice but to let a creature be sloooowly kited to death.

A monk relying on ranged attacks is basically as scary as a bandit. Like, they might hit sometimes for a bit of damage, but they’re not exactly a priority.
A) They have mobility without Di.
Kensai extra damage does not use Di.

B) i had enough scenarios where the monk followed the enemy survivors and hunted them down. (At melee usually, but using a bow would have been way more clever.)

C) Not shooting at approacging enemies or stupidly running in is dumb.

Edit: whenever dex is constructed as uber stat, being able to use ranged weaponry is a big thing... so why is it irelevant here?

And from my own experience, a sling was very useful.
 

Also, couldn't we improve the fighter's DPR by giving them the two weapon fighting style, now I think about it?
We could but I wanted to show a more defensive build to see the difference. I mean at the end of the day nothing beats TWF for damage in the early levels.
 

Well at levels 1-4 they kind of do. They do a good bit more damage than Fighters, Rogues, and barbarians.... and that's before you include flurry.

They can't take a hit, but they certainly dish it out (see my previous posts where I ran through all the numbers).
Ehhh.... On a lark, I ran a side by side comparison of all three Monk subclasses compared to a Champion Fighter, we'll say Human for now, though I do prefer Halfling for increased mobility when mixed with Step of the Wind. The fighter took a scimitar and short sword, the monk took a handaxe. This way we both get an occasional attack that procs Vex. Standard array of 15/14/13/12/10.

Level 0 - Fighter gets martial weapons and heavy armor, starts with AC 16. Starts with 17 in Str, 14 Con. Monk starts with 16 in Dex/Wis, starts with AC 16, 12 in Con. Fighter takes FS:Def as starting feat, boosting AC to 17; Monk takes Tavern Brawler* for push attacks. Both take Alert for their second feat. Thanks to their higher Con score and HP die, Fighter starts off with 3 more HP than Monk, and get 2 more per level after that. They also recharge more HP during short rests as a result of higher HP die.

* Its a bit annoying that Tavern Brawler is both great and bad for monk. Its great in that monks love unarmed attacks, so anything that boosts it is practically a must-have. Its bad because half the feat does nothing for the monk, so it feels almost like a waste. Honestly, could just as well reduce this to a 5' push on Weapon Mastery and save us all a feat tax.

Level 1 - Fighter takes FS:TWF, gets Second Wind (even MORE HP than monk) and Weapon Masteries for scimitar/short sword. Monk gets Martial Arts, which effectively gives them light, finesse, FS:TWF on Unarmed Attacks, Unarmored Defense, and Weapon Mastery.

Both make an attack with Vex weapon with equal damage, and both can make a second attack of same damage again - everything is very close to the same damage at this point. Fighter gets to keep his Bonus Action open for Second Wind, Monk gets to push someone 5'.

Level 2, monk gets di, fighter gets action surge. Monk uses di to Flurry of Blows for an extra attack over two turns. Fighter uses Action Surge to get two extra attacks on a single turn thanks to Nick. As Fighter's extra attacks include the chance to proc a Vex, the Fighter technically pulls ahead on damage by virtue of increased chance to hit, but its not by a huge amount. Monk does not get

Level 3. Subclass. Monk also gets Deflect Arrows, and how often does that come up in play? No, seriously; I'm used to seeing goblin/bandit and skeleton archers at low levels, and the occasional drow crossbow at higher levels, but is there anything else?

Fighter gets a lackluster level - we get another FS (our third now) and Improved Crit. I'm not sure how the math of combining Vex with Improved Crit will work to actually proc critical hits now, and the damage is kind of lackluster. For our FS, lets take archery so that we can be flexible if we run into a flying monster or enemies on the other side of a gap. More notably, this is about the level we can afford Splint Mail, increasing our AC by 1 again, for a total of 18. Other Fighter subclasses tend to be better at directly increasing damage.

Monk gets three options with different implications. Shadow gives you magic. This is great battlefield control, but costs di and actually prevents the monk from doing damage, though they will get some nice advantage on their attacks next turn. They can even position the darkness in a spot that won't screw over the rest of the party. Using shadow magic actually decreases this monk's overall damage, however, as they want to spend di on the Darkness spell and they don't have enough to Flurry of Blows as often. Might want to swap Masteries as well?

Element... 1 di lasts 10 minutes for a great push/pull option, and has a good chance of lasting until the next short rest option. This leaves us with equal damage to level 2, but excellent control and decent ranged options just from Unarmed Attacks. It also renders both Tavern Brawler and Weapon Masteries obsolete, as we probably want to go full in on Unarmed Attacks with this option.

Open Hand is the only option that really increases damage instead of just offering control. And that's because you actually get to use your new di point on flurry of blows. Topple is the best prone-move in the game, working on any size, of which also tend to have bad Dex saves. This is the only time Monk beats out Champion Fighter in terms of damage, though probably not other Fighter subclasses. Each subclass seems to be giving superior control options to Weapon Masteries, however, instead of more damage.

Level 4 is feat/ASI time. And Slow Fall, but like Deflect Arrow, its questionable how useful that is. Fighter gets to take Charger, or Sentinel, or any other feat that directly increases damage while also boosting Strength. Monk ... needs to go all in on boosting their Dex or Wis. Not only do they need the AC and accuracy, but the lack of martial weapon proficency radically reduces their feat options to Skulker, Speedster, Weapon Training, Resilient, Ritual Caster, Observant, Keen Mind, Defensive Duelist, Actor, Athlete, Lightly Armored and Grappler, none of which directly increase damage like the Fighter's options does.

TLDR: The Fighter has slightly better damage 1-4, even as a Champion, better AC, better Hit Points. This is further exasperated by the presence of any magic weapons or armor, favoring the Fighter. However, the Monk eventually gets far better battlefield control options than the Fighter, putting even Weapon Masteries to shame.
 

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