D&D General DMs Guild and DriveThruRPG ban AI written works, requires labels for AI generated art

[ECMO3]

From Ennies nominee Linda Condega and Gizmodo:



I understand the temptation to use AI generated art -- finding and connecting with professional artists can be challenging -- but I wish they'd gone further in their restrictions on it.

Why is it that we should jobs of writers and artists, what about the people who write the AI algorithms? Shouldn't they be invited to the table?

Last I checked writers are not pounding things out on typewriters and artists aren't painting canvass, they are using technology and replaced those "old school" creatives and are doing it better and faster. The AI creators should be given the same sort of opportunity.

I am all for buying the best product available, if that is something written and drawn by AI then it should be on the marketplace, and keeping it off will likely ultimately be to the detriment of DMsguild and DriveThruRPG.

 

[Thomas Shey]

A human needs to be deliberate in copying. Otherwise they end up doing something very personal.

I don't think so. I've absolutely known artists who's work looked overwhelmingly like artists they were fond of that did not seem in the least self-aware of it. It had just become "This is a thing I like the look of so this is how you draw." People can be very heavily influenced by art they like and not really think of what they're doing as copying.

Even imitators end up putting their personal touch. Humans aren't just copiers, humans carry baggage, experiences, feelings, emotions, and desires. No two people will draw the same while a machine will produce the same result when using the same seed and parameters.

And the AI art I've seen is usually mixinging in multiple influences in a way that if a human did it we'd say was clearly. idiosyncratic but clearly based on those.

Essentially, I'm still not seeing it. "The same seed and parameters" just seems to be to be an expression of those various other inputs you ascribe to humans; if you had one that had the same sort of things, they'd produce things very similar (and I'd argue in some cases, very much have).

 

[Sacrosanct]

You mean like N2 The Forest Oracle?

If it were written in lower Lanasian.

 

[Scribe]

Why is it that we should jobs of writers and artists, what about the people who write the AI algorithms? Shouldn't they be invited to the table?

They are already at the table. Getting paid for their work in the IT field.

Amusingly they are also writing themselves out of a job eventually, as more and more code is being AI generated.

Pretty smart, that...

 

[Clint_L]

Theft certainly does minimize costs, yes.

Do we need to use such loaded language?

AI art is not all one thing. There are some uses of it that I don't think anyone has a problem with, and others where many people have a problem. So labeling the whole concept as "theft" is too reductive and makes it almost impossible to have a discussion. As well, it is an inaccurate statement from a legal perspective. There are many cases happening right now, many more to come, and they will almost certainly come to a variety of conclusion depending on the specifics of each situation, not to mention jurisdictional issues.

It also leads to valid questions about the way humans generate art, which also involves a great deal of studying and copying other work. There is a lot of litigation in this area, particularly in the music industry, and the line between what is permissible and what is not is extremely nuanced, so much so that legal battles are regularly fought over different interpretations of art ownership.

Here's an example:

Write a background for a D&D 5e character. She is a lizardfolk working in the mostly human city of Waterdeep, in the Forgotten Realms setting

Character Background: Viskara, the Reclaimed Wanderer
In the bustling metropolis of Waterdeep, where humans and other races mingle in a cacophony of diversity, there resides an unlikely figure: Viskara, a proud and determined lizardfolk. Her origins are shrouded in mystery, and her tale is one of resilience, redemption, and the endless pursuit of knowledge.

Viskara's story begins in the murky swamps of the Chultan Peninsula, far from the polished streets of Waterdeep. She was born into a secluded tribe of lizardfolk known as the Scaled Shadows. Her early years were marked by the struggles of survival in the untamed wilderness, where she learned the art of hunting, gathering, and respecting the balance of nature.

However, fate had other plans for Viskara. Her tribe fell victim to a deadly plague, which ravaged their numbers and threatened to wipe them out entirely. Stricken with grief and desperation, Viskara sought the counsel of the tribal elders. They spoke of an ancient ritual that might save their dwindling kin. It required a sacrifice of one of their own—a willing soul to venture into the outside world and seek a cure.

Viskara, driven by a potent mix of love for her tribe and an unyielding curiosity about the outside world, offered herself for the ritual. She embarked on a treacherous journey, braving the perils of the swamps, hostile creatures, and the unfamiliar lands beyond. Her instinct for survival kept her going, but it was her unwavering determination that saw her through.

After weeks of hardship, Viskara emerged from the wilderness, scarred but alive. Through a stroke of fate, she encountered a group of travelers from Waterdeep. Their compassion and knowledge of healing arts led to a miraculous cure for the plague that had plagued her tribe. In return, Viskara shared the wisdom of her people's connection with nature.

Grateful for the help she received, Viskara chose to remain in Waterdeep, a place she had initially seen as alien and foreboding. With time, she integrated into the city's life, learning its customs and languages. Yet, she could never fully leave behind her lizardfolk heritage. Her scales, her instincts, and her unique worldview set her apart from the humans, elves, and dwarves that populated the city.

Now, as a citizen of Waterdeep, Viskara seeks purpose beyond her own survival. She works tirelessly to bridge the gap between her people and the humans, advocating for understanding, empathy, and cooperation. Her background as a skilled hunter and tracker has found use in various endeavors, including assisting the city watch in solving crimes and navigating the city's labyrinthine streets.

Viskara's thirst for knowledge remains unquenched. She spends her spare time in Waterdeep's libraries, poring over ancient tomes and studying the city's history, as well as the broader realm of Faerûn. Through her journey of self-discovery, she hopes to uncover the connection between her lizardfolk heritage and the city's past, seeking a deeper purpose that intertwines her fate with Waterdeep's destiny.

In a world where the unfamiliar is met with prejudice and fear, Viskara stands as a symbol of unity—a living testament to the possibility of harmony between diverse cultures. Her tale of resilience and redemption inspires hope and acceptance, not only for herself but for all who seek a place to belong in the vibrant tapestry of Waterdeep.

I don't know if you would call that theft. I certainly would not. None of that ever existed in the world before; it is a result of a human (me) creating a prompt and Chat4 running with it. It's certainly derivative, but it's well composed and typical fantasy stuff that is more than enough for me to run with for an NPC, perhaps adding some tweaks as needed.

Or what if I write a paragraph and ask Chat4 to give me some feedback - this is an exercise that I've done with students, and that many schools recommend as an ethical and appropriate way to use Chat4. Is that feedback theft?

I think your position is much too black and white, and just labeling everything done by a generative AI as "theft" leads to some counterintuitive results.

 

[Clint_L]

A human needs to be deliberate in copying. Otherwise they end up doing something very personal. Even imitators end up putting their personal touch. Humans aren't just copiers, humans carry baggage, experiences, feelings, emotions, and desires. No two people will draw the same while a machine will produce the same result when using the same seed and parameters.

Except...generative AI doesn't.

 

[Morrus]

Not true.
They are positing a statement, and are therefore under obligation to provide proof.

Your mistake was reporting this person because they ‘didn’t provide you with proof’. This made me look at what would make you demand my attention out of my Friday evening with such a ridiculous report. I then noticed you had 6 warnings, and were being an ass all over this thread.

Shooting yourself in the foot is very clever: well done. You’re out of this thread, on your 7th warning, 8th will be the last.

 

[Rogerd1]

Why is it that we should jobs of writers and artists, what about the people who write the AI algorithms? Shouldn't they be invited to the table?

Last I checked writers are not pounding things out on typewriters and artists aren't painting canvass, they are using technology and replaced those "old school" creatives and are doing it better and faster. The AI creators should be given the same sort of opportunity.

I am all for buying the best product available, if that is something written and drawn by AI then it should be on the marketplace, and keeping it off will likely ultimately be to the detriment of DMsguild and DriveThruRPG.

Exactly that, and there are some great products out there on DMS Guild that use AI art.

 

[Morrus]

If you laugh at me when I tell you to take your feet off my furniture, you exit permanently through the nearest window. Basic courtesy is a condition of your visit here. Ask your mum if confused about how to interact with people.

 

[Charlaquin]

Do we need to use such loaded language?

Yes, because people are far too comfortable with letting themselves think it’s “just a tool” and therefore harmless. People’s actual livelihoods are in jeopardy. Loaded language is absolutely warranted.

AI art is not all one thing. There are some uses of it that I don't think anyone has a problem with, and others where many people have a problem.

As long as it’s trained on work that the artists are not being notified of, let alone compensated for, I don’t believe any use of it is justifiable.

So labeling the whole concept as "theft" is too reductive and makes it almost impossible to have a discussion.

Good, because I don’t believe there is room for discussion. Generative “AI” is art theft. Period.

As well, it is an inaccurate statement from a legal perspective. There are many cases happening right now, many more to come, and they will almost certainly come to a variety of conclusion depending on the specifics of each situation, not to mention jurisdictional issues.

Yes, yes, the actual legal status is still being sorted out in court, and probably will be for a while. Regardless of what ends up being decided, I believe that the training of generative AI on work without the knowledge or consent of the works’ creators is morally equivalent to theft.

It also leads to valid questions about the way humans generate art, which also involves a great deal of studying and copying other work. There is a lot of litigation in this area, particularly in the music industry, and the line between what is permissible and what is not is extremely nuanced, so much so that legal battles are regularly fought over different interpretations of art ownership.

Yes, copyright law is a wild and woolly beast. Still theft to exploit people’s labor for value without compensating or even informing them.

Here's an example:

Write a background for a D&D 5e character. She is a lizardfolk working in the mostly human city of Waterdeep, in the Forgotten Realms setting

Character Background: Viskara, the Reclaimed Wanderer
In the bustling metropolis of Waterdeep, where humans and other races mingle in a cacophony of diversity, there resides an unlikely figure: Viskara, a proud and determined lizardfolk. Her origins are shrouded in mystery, and her tale is one of resilience, redemption, and the endless pursuit of knowledge.

Viskara's story begins in the murky swamps of the Chultan Peninsula, far from the polished streets of Waterdeep. She was born into a secluded tribe of lizardfolk known as the Scaled Shadows. Her early years were marked by the struggles of survival in the untamed wilderness, where she learned the art of hunting, gathering, and respecting the balance of nature.

However, fate had other plans for Viskara. Her tribe fell victim to a deadly plague, which ravaged their numbers and threatened to wipe them out entirely. Stricken with grief and desperation, Viskara sought the counsel of the tribal elders. They spoke of an ancient ritual that might save their dwindling kin. It required a sacrifice of one of their own—a willing soul to venture into the outside world and seek a cure.

Viskara, driven by a potent mix of love for her tribe and an unyielding curiosity about the outside world, offered herself for the ritual. She embarked on a treacherous journey, braving the perils of the swamps, hostile creatures, and the unfamiliar lands beyond. Her instinct for survival kept her going, but it was her unwavering determination that saw her through.

After weeks of hardship, Viskara emerged from the wilderness, scarred but alive. Through a stroke of fate, she encountered a group of travelers from Waterdeep. Their compassion and knowledge of healing arts led to a miraculous cure for the plague that had plagued her tribe. In return, Viskara shared the wisdom of her people's connection with nature.

Grateful for the help she received, Viskara chose to remain in Waterdeep, a place she had initially seen as alien and foreboding. With time, she integrated into the city's life, learning its customs and languages. Yet, she could never fully leave behind her lizardfolk heritage. Her scales, her instincts, and her unique worldview set her apart from the humans, elves, and dwarves that populated the city.

Now, as a citizen of Waterdeep, Viskara seeks purpose beyond her own survival. She works tirelessly to bridge the gap between her people and the humans, advocating for understanding, empathy, and cooperation. Her background as a skilled hunter and tracker has found use in various endeavors, including assisting the city watch in solving crimes and navigating the city's labyrinthine streets.

Viskara's thirst for knowledge remains unquenched. She spends her spare time in Waterdeep's libraries, poring over ancient tomes and studying the city's history, as well as the broader realm of Faerûn. Through her journey of self-discovery, she hopes to uncover the connection between her lizardfolk heritage and the city's past, seeking a deeper purpose that intertwines her fate with Waterdeep's destiny.

In a world where the unfamiliar is met with prejudice and fear, Viskara stands as a symbol of unity—a living testament to the possibility of harmony between diverse cultures. Her tale of resilience and redemption inspires hope and acceptance, not only for herself but for all who seek a place to belong in the vibrant tapestry of Waterdeep.

I don't know if you would call that theft.

Would I call that background stolen? No. But I would call the body of work from which Chat4 drew to make its predictions about what sequence of words would be most likely to satisfy your prompt stolen. What you have there is therefore not itself stolen, but rather is a product of theft. Maybe not from a copyright law perspective (yet), but I certainly think from a moral perspective.

Or what if I write a paragraph and ask Chat4 to give me some feedback - this is an exercise that I've done with students, and that many schools recommend as an ethical and appropriate way to use Chat4. Is that feedback theft?

I would still call it a product of theft, because the material the bot was trained on was stolen.