D&D General What is player agency to you?

[bloodtide]

I just want to be sure that you realize there is a difference between having character's actions matter and "altering the game reality." Player's want their choices to matter (have agency), that doesn't mean they want the game reality to change because of those choices.

I don't see it.

Most of the "storytelling agency games" have a mechanic that alters game reality. Like the "I know a guy one". The character encounters a a locked door, and the player just says "Oh I know a guy that made me a skeleton key". And POP reality is altered, the character "suddenly" just "has" the key and opens the door.

Or the games with the things like: the character is walking down a road, and the player just says "gosh I sure wish my best NPC pal would be coming down this road right now in a wagon to give my character a ride". And POP reality is altered, and the NPC "just happens" to "amazingly" be coming down the road in a wagon.

I don't know exactly what "game reality" means.

I think you know.

Taking actions with in the game reality, do not change game reality. A character killing an orc is part of the reality. Changing reality is simply doing an action in the game not through a character. It's what GMs do.

Not altering game reality: Character walks up to the edge of a large river bank, player asks the DM what they see.

Altering game reality: Character walks up to the edge of a large river bank, and player says "oh my characters Brother Boatman is comming down the river in his boat at this exact second and picks up my character." Dm just nods yes.

I don't know what people mean. That's why I said as much.

I don't know what all these games are that let players make changes to the fiction other than by declaring actions for their PCs. I only seem to see them mentioned by people who don't play them.

I put some examples above.

'Changing reality' implies that something defined was contradicted. What's generally being discussed is filling in things that haven't been defined - 'creating reality'. Players in traditional games do this all the time.

No they don't. A Traditional game is: GM makes up and controls everything and player plays their character. That's it.

Very specifically a traditional game is a player asking the GM what their character sees, so they can have their character react to it with in the game.

But bloodtide is talking about D&D, not other games. I have not heard of people doing this in D&D games and blood implies it is commonplace.

It is. Sadly what happens is some gamers play some of the Other Games and think they are beyond great. But then they go back to playing D&D, and bring the ideas with them. So even though 5E D&D does not have a "I know a guy" rule, players will whine or demand it be added to have "player agency".

 

[pemerton]

Most of the "storytelling agency games" have a mechanic that alters game reality. Like the "I know a guy one". The character encounters a a locked door, and the player just says "Oh I know a guy that made me a skeleton key". And POP reality is altered, the character "suddenly" just "has" the key and opens the door.

Or the games with the things like: the character is walking down a road, and the player just says "gosh I sure wish my best NPC pal would be coming down this road right now in a wagon to give my character a ride". And POP reality is altered, and the NPC "just happens" to "amazingly" be coming down the road in a wagon.

Which RPGs are you talking about? Can you actually name any, or are you just making this up?

Taking actions with in the game reality, do not change game reality. A character killing an orc is part of the reality. Changing reality is simply doing an action in the game not through a character. It's what GMs do.

Not altering game reality: Character walks up to the edge of a large river bank, player asks the DM what they see.

Altering game reality: Character walks up to the edge of a large river bank, and player says "oh my characters Brother Boatman is comming down the river in his boat at this exact second and picks up my character." Dm just nods yes.


I put some examples above.

I repeat: can you actually name any RPGs that work as you claim they do? I don't know of any.

A Traditional game is: GM makes up and controls everything and player plays their character. That's it.

Traveller is a RPG from 1977. That seems pretty traditional to me. And its Streetwise mechanic works differently from what you say here.

 

[soviet]

It is. Sadly what happens is some gamers play some of the Other Games and think they are beyond great. But then they go back to playing D&D, and bring the ideas with them. So even though 5E D&D does not have a "I know a guy" rule, players will whine or demand it be added to have "player agency".

This thread started with your statement that your players hate you personally and didn't have fun in your game, but they couldn't really articulate why beyond 'buzzwords' like agency. Now you say that they actually play these other more agency-ful games, and they think they are great.

I mean, if you wanted proof of which approach to gaming is most fun for these people, I think you have it, right?

 

[dave2008]

I don't see it.

Most of the "storytelling agency games" have a mechanic that alters game reality.

We are not talking about other games, we are talking about your summer D&D game. What other games do is not relevant.

It is. Sadly what happens is some gamers play some of the Other Games and think they are beyond great. But then they go back to playing D&D, and bring the ideas with them. So even though 5E D&D does not have a "I know a guy" rule, players will whine or demand it be added to have "player agency".

I call BS. It is not commonplace. Even if it is something you experience a lot, it is not common place. There are not a lot games that have the "alter reality" aspect you are talking about and the number of people that play them is miniscule compared to D&D. In fact, the number of players who have only played 5e D&D is likely much bigger than all the people you play such games combined.

 

[bloodtide]

What is being altered or changed?

This does not seem like a hard concept.

Normal reality: Player Character Abel does not know NPC Zorn. This is true for weeks of game play, and the player even says so in character many times.

Changed reality: suddenly the adventure swings in the direction of NPC Zorn being part of the plot. And the player just says "oh yea, my character Abel is Best Friends with Zorn" to gain some advantage in the game play.

Which RPGs are you talking about? Can you actually name any, or are you just making this up?

I repeat: can you actually name any RPGs that work as you claim they do? I don't know of any.

Well, the examples I used are based on your Burning Wheel examples. Blades in the Dark has the "remember" thing. And BinD I think also has the "I know a guy" one. Dungeon Word is the basis of the whole game. The Powered By the Apocalypse have it too....but I don't know them well.


But, again, I'm not and never have been talking about a specific game and a specific game rule in that game.

I'm talking about RPGS in GENERAL. And how so many players take the "Player Agency" stuff from whater game they get it from.....AND THEN want to add it to EVERY other game.

 

[dave2008]

No they don't. A Traditional game is: GM makes up and controls everything and player plays their character. That's it.

Very specifically a traditional game is a player asking the GM what their character sees, so they can have their character react to it with in the game.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with your definition of a "traditional game;" however, I am going to point out that it is completely possible for player's / character's to have agency in such a game.

Player agency =/= altering reality

 

[dave2008]

Well, the examples I used are based on your Burning Wheel examples. Blades in the Dark has the "remember" thing. And BinD I think also has the "I know a guy" one. Dungeon Word is the basis of the whole game. The Powered By the Apocalypse have it too....but I don't know them well.


But, again, I'm not and never have been talking about a specific game and a specific game rule in that game.

I'm talking about RPGS in GENERAL. And how so many players take the "Player Agency" stuff from whater game they get it from.....AND THEN want to add it to EVERY other game.

However, what happens is that you are typically incorrect about the rules of the games your broadly referring too. At least that is my understanding. I don't really know as I, like you I think, have not played those games.

And the D&D player base out numbers people who play those games something like 100-1 (if not a lot more).

 

[bloodtide]

We are not talking about other games, we are talking about your summer D&D game. What other games do is not relevant.

I agree. But SOME people just insist on talking about all the other games BY NAME.

I call BS. It is not commonplace. Even if it is something you experience a lot, it is not common place. There are not a lot games that have the "alter reality" aspect you are talking about and the number of people that play them is miniscule compared to D&D. In fact, the number of players who have only played 5e D&D is likely much bigger than all the people you play such games combined.

I'm sure this is true. It's more of the follower thing. Cory is super cool....to them. Cory played Whatever Cool Game, and then told everyone about his whatever player agency wahtever.....and it has spread and spread by word of mouth for years.

 

[dave2008]

I agree. But SOME people just insist on talking about all the other games BY NAME.

You are! You are the one talking about "altering reality" which is not a D&D thing!

 

[bloodtide]

No, that's not clear at all. What, actually, changes?

Something is revealed, yes. DMs reveal things constantly. Players reveal things constantly--every time they speak about backstory, in fact. Which is why I keep mentioning that. If revealing things qualifies as "changing the game's reality," then the vast majority of roleplay should be verboten.

Unless, of course, you're willing to get more specific, which is why we're asking.

The BIG diffrence is the GM revealing things as part of the game being a neutral individual.....and the player(s) revealing things to gain or change something in the game for their own benefit.

Like at any time a player can just say "oh NPC Bob owes my character a ton of money, so i go collect it from him"...and suddenly the player has just altered game reality to make their character rich.

And yes railroading is one form of altering the games reality.

It's my preferred way of doing it.

This thread started with your statement that your players hate you personally and didn't have fun in your game, but they couldn't really articulate why beyond 'buzzwords' like agency. Now you say that they actually play these other more agency-ful games, and they think they are great.

I mean, if you wanted proof of which approach to gaming is most fun for these people, I think you have it, right?

I'm not an expert in every player. We all game at the library or rec center. So I see them, know some names and we clash every so often. I have seen them play many games across the room.

And here is the thing....we are playing summer games. When I suggest any game it will get shot down....they just want to play D&D 5E....though I did convince one group to play 3.5E. But then they jump on the whole agency thing.....for D&D.

What RPG do you have in mind that permits a player to do this?

While a LOT of people feel they can ONLY do something in an RPG if they have a printed "offical" rule in a book right in front of them.........I will let you know this is not always the case.

A great many people can just "do stuff" with no rules. People can just make stuff up.