D&D General What is player agency to you?

[soviet]

Not me. RPGs created this division.

Many RPGs create a different division.

 

[soviet]

Then sub outcomes with control over the narrative, which is DM Agency. D&D is the baseline as it was first and is biggest. Other games get compared to it. If D&D has Player Agency: 3 and DM Agency: 3(which includes narration), then No Myth giving a degree of narrative ability to players is reducing the DM's DM Agency and giving some DM Agency to the players.

You were complaining earlier about One True Wayism. Here you are literally saying that your preferred way is definitional.

 

[Maxperson]

Many RPGs create a different division.

By sharing that DM Agency with the players. You calling it more Player Agency and then trying to judge other games by your new metric doesn't work.

 

[Maxperson]

You were complaining earlier about One True Wayism. Here you are literally saying that your preferred way is definitional.

I'm literally saying the opposite man. One True Wayism would be telling you that you have to play like D&D does it and not alter the amounts of agency types between players and DMs. Nice try though!!

Edit: You(general you) changing the definition and then trying to tell me that my high player agency traditional game is now "minimal" player agency is the One True Wayism.

 

[soviet]

I'm literally saying the opposite man. One True Wayism would be telling you that you have to play like D&D does it and not alter the amounts of agency types between players and DMs. Nice try though!!

Edit: You(general you) changing the definition and then trying to tell me that my high player agency traditional game is now "minimal" player agency is the One True Wayism.

Yeah I completely believe that players in your game have lots of agency and aren't just repeatedly shouted down by 'definitions' you claim to have invented earlier.

 

[Aldarc]

This is good and useful! So, Fate certainly treads closer to the line in the sand, but as you say, there's still a requirement the player must have first: an Aspect that permits such a declaration. In the context of my random example, a hostel in the middle of nowhere, would something like...

Aspect: Mendicant Friar
Effect: Spend a fate point to reveal resources you can draw upon as a member of your monastic order, so long as you are in a place where that order holds sway.

There seems to be some potential for rolls or the like relating to Aspects, so there could even be a roll involved in some way, but I don't know enough about the Fate system to really say more. (Just did a quick glance at the Fate SRD website, so hopefully the above isn't terribly wrong!)

An aspect can be something like "Mendicant Friar," but if you are describing "effects," then that moves closer to Stunts. Aspects tend to be far less prescriptive.

So I'm linking to the SRD from the more recent Fate Condensed:

Invoking to Declare Story Details
You may add an important or unlikely detail to the story based on an aspect in play. Don’t spend a fate point when “aspects are always true” applies. Pay when it’s a stretch—or, table willing, when there’s no relevant aspect.

So maybe the character has an aspect like "I know the roads of Eternia like the back of my hand" or "Well-Traveled Peddler" even "Do I smell food over there?"

One example that I have used before was a case when the party had to sneak into a noble's house but it was pretty well-guarded at the doors. One of the PCs was the "Disgraced Ex-Bodyguard of the Prince" (aspect), so the player invoked their aspect to declare a story detail. Because they were the ex-bodyguard of the Prince, they figured that they knew the ins and outs of the palace grounds, including some secret pathways. That seemed fairly reasonable considering their background. So we talked about it, and the player in-character declared that there were was a hidden path that led from the kitchen in the palace to the garden shed. The party used that to sneak into the palace.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah I completely believe that players in your game have lots of agency and aren't just repeatedly shouted down by 'definitions' you claim to have invented earlier.

Cool. Glad you believe that, because it's true.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Players cannot, as folks have repeatedly claimed, just say something like, "Oh, I remember (nudge nudge, wink wink) that there's a hostel here where we can spend the night! No need to worry about sleeping in the dangerous wilderness. Thank goodness I remembered this was here!" There is literally nothing in any PbtA game I have ever read or played which works that way. The BitD Flashback rules do not work that way. No system I have ever seen which offers "narrative" tools (since "storytelling" apparently means something completely fixed and immutable now) permits players to just will an advantage into being simply because they declare that it exists.

There absolutely should be.

To the word doc!

 

[Oofta]

An aspect can be something like "Mendicant Friar," but if you are describing "effects," then that moves closer to Stunts. Aspects tend to be far less prescriptive.

So I'm linking to the SRD from the more recent Fate Condensed:

So maybe the character has an aspect like "I know the roads of Eternia like the back of my hand" or "Well-Traveled Peddler" even "Do I smell food over there?"

One example that I have used before was a case when the party had to sneak into a noble's house but it was pretty well-guarded at the doors. One of the PCs was the "Disgraced Ex-Bodyguard of the Prince" (aspect), so the player invoked their aspect to declare a story detail. Because they were the ex-bodyguard of the Prince, they figured that they knew the ins and outs of the palace grounds, including some secret pathways. That seemed fairly reasonable considering their background. So we talked about it, and the player in-character declared that there were was a path that hidden led from the kitchen in the palace to the garden shed. The party used that to sneak into the palace.

First, there's nothing wrong with this. Despite what people are claiming, I don't think this is in any way "bad" even if it wouldn't be my preferred style of play. However, the player in this case is dictating the reality of the world, not the DM.

In a D&D game players frequently remind the DM of their connections and background. By default the DM then decides whether or not to reveal an existing secret entrance, perhaps after a skill check. Whether the DM had the entrance planned out or just made it up on the spot because it made sense doesn't really matter. It was up to the DM to decide whether the secret entrance existed, not the player.

Again, neither is right or wrong. I also don't see this as giving the player more agency, it's just a different way of resolving obstacles. In your Fate game, one way of overcoming the obstacle is to use your aspect. It's still the players choice to invoke their aspect to get into the castle. In D&D there would be presumably be other options to get into the castle.

EDIT: right now I'm trying to figure out how the PCs might get the McGuffin that's in a protected area. One option is a secret entrance they can discover, another is to find out that the McGuffin is about to be moved, perhaps they can use disguises, they could go in guns spells blazing. Maybe they'll figure something else out.

Ultimately though there are several ways to get the McGuffin. Fate just gives them different options to achieve their goals, in either case the players have agency to decide how or even if they achieve their goal.

 

[Aldarc]

First, there's nothing wrong with this.

My sole purpose in posting this was to help EzekielRaiden better understand how the "declare a story detail" mechanic that they tried to grok works in Fate. There was no value judgment about D&D, Fate, or any other game contained therein. There was no value judgment about agency in any game. I was simply explaining the mechanic.