D&D General What is player agency to you?

[mamba]

Because I've never used any. Why is the burden of proof on me? You think there's a good reason, provide an example.

you do not consider them good examples, so we are back to ‘according to you there aren’t any’

I’d say if you insist that there may be, but shoot down all the ones people bring up, the burden is starting to fall on you…

What? "I cast fireball" is my decision alone. Then the effects go off, per the rules. No one else gets to decide what happens, except perhaps that they can save for lesser damage.

my point exactly, now try that with the noble granting your char an audience

I say what I want my character to do, and then the rules tell us how it goes.

or the DM does

I would say that folks who are ignoring the phrasing in the text that eliminates player agency are at least consistent when they say they care about player agency.

and how does this matter for the discussion?

 

[soviet]

By definition, games where the GM has a veto over the rules have less player agency than those where they do not.

 

[pointofyou]

my point exactly, now try that with the noble granting your char an audience

Why is the character seeking the audience different from the character casting fireball? The rules are both written as "this happens."

 

[mamba]

I would say that the DM may narrate something else happening along the way... maybe the character is accosted by criminals or runs into someone he knows or what have you... but I don't think of my declaration of going to the inn as a request. That's what will happen, unless there's a good reason it can't.

sure, but that still doesn’t mean you arrive at the inn.

Also, I find it interesting that here some thugs are a good reason, but nothing ever was for the audience being denied…

 

[mamba]

Why is the character seeking the audience different from the character casting fireball? The rules are both written as "this happens."

for what is probably the fourth time, because one of the two requires the cooperation of an NPC

Also, because the DM decided so, and explicitly has the authority to override it

 

[hawkeyefan]

you do not consider them good examples, so we are back to ‘according to you there aren’t any’

I’d say if you insist that there may be, but shoot down all the ones people bring up, the burden is starting to fall on you…

No one has offered an actual example. They've offered either absurdities or vague hypotheticals. If you don't have any actual useful examples, that's fine, but then don't act surprised that I'm unimpressed by your argument. And don't ask me to strengthen it for you.

my point exactly, now try that with the noble granting your char an audience

Well, the rule says I can do it, so... I do it?

or the DM does

Not really. They may set a DC or apply other judgment, but generally speaking, the rules are there to tell us how things go.

If we abandon the rules and just put all that on the DM, then why are we even talking about player agency? Lets let all our games work like the OP.

and how does this matter for the discussion?

Well, if two sides are claiming that player agency matters, and one is exalting text that eliminates it, and one is pointing out text that supports it... I think I can tell who's being consistent.

 

[pointofyou]

for what is probably the fourth time, because one of the two requires the cooperation of an NPC

Do the rules say so? What I see is "You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to." There's been argument as to what "local" means but nothing as that's written says anything more about anyone cooperating than the fireball spell description does.

 

[mamba]

No one has offered an actual example. They've offered either absurdities or vague hypotheticals.

how is me saying ‘because of a feud between your houses’, ‘because the noble was let know in no uncertain terms that if he does, that will be very detrimental to his health’, ‘because you are on a different plane and no one recognizes your title’ any more hypothetical than your ‘I run into some thugs / a friend on the way to the inn’?

They are exactly the same, yet you happily offered the last one, shot down all the others and also said you cannot think of any…

 

[mamba]

Well, the rule says I can do it, so... I do it?

the rules also say the DM decides, so… not in this case?

Well, if two sides are claiming that player agency matters, and one is exalting text that eliminates it, and one is pointing out text that supports it... I think I can tell who's being consistent.

that shows a difference in importance we attribute to it. You have clearly shown that it trumps everything else, we disagree.

Something not being the most important thing, dominating everything else, does not mean it does not matter

 

[pointofyou]

the rules also say the DM decides, so… not in this case?

The point has always been that the more the DM flatly decides the less agency the players actually have. If a rule doesn't do what it says it does solely because the DM so decides that is a pretty explicit removal of player agency. It is absolutely reasonable for the people playing the game to base their decisions on the rules of the game they're playing.