D&D General What is player agency to you?

[mamba]

I've posted actual play examples from 4e D&D, from Burning Wheel, from Torchbearer and from Classic Traveller. I can provide more if you like

as promised (threatened?) here are some questions about this, still trying to nail down your role

As a basis I am using the Delian Tomb, cannot really think of a more basic adventure, but it should be sufficient for this. Maybe some people are somewhat familiar with it already, if not, here is a link

The Delian Tomb

The Delian Tomb is a low-level dungeon designed by Matt Colville using Dungeonographer in the first episode of his Running the Game series on Youtube. The dungeon is meant to serve as a simple ready-made adventure for a new dungeon master to run for new players on short notice, containing 5...

mcdm.fandom.com

You can basically get everything you need for this discussion from just the picture

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/mdcm/images/b/b9/Delian_Tomb.jpg/revision/latest/

I am not basing this on any edition of D&D, I am more looking for Burning Wheel, Torchbearer or ones like that. I am not familiar with them, but they sound a lot more rules-heavy and procedural than D&D (which might lead to a whole other discussion about agency, but I am not sure I want to have that )

Ok, here goes:

Who is coming up with the premise? I assume the players do, i.e. players decide 'we want to look for treasure in an old tomb and fight some goblins', or is any of that part not based on player input? E.g. do you pick the monsters?

What if these are new players and instead they say 'we want to look for treasure in an old castle ruin and fight a dragon'? Are you thinking 'fine, if that is what they want, we figure out the rest along the way', or do you point out immediately that fighting a dragon is maybe not the best idea for a 1st level party?

Is it much less direct than that? The players just say something about looking for treasure and the rest is up to the GM / some random tables?

Let's say the players made it close to the entrance, there are some goblin guards hiding in the bushes near the entrance. How did they get there? Did the GM decide to place them there because that is a reasonable thing to do? Are there some rules for generating random dungeons that would have had to result in this? Is that something the players must have hinted at for them to be there? Can the players ever be surprised by some goblins jumping out of the bushes? Not if they are the ones responsible for placing them there.. at least not the players, their chars still might, according to the rules.

For that matter, who decided the layout of the tomb? Some random dungeon generator in the rulebook, the GM based on descriptions the players gave (i.e. doing their best to incorporate everything the players said their chars have heard, but some stuff original to the GM), the GM based on their own ideas?

This to me becomes relevant when it comes to things like traps and secret doors, these cannot really be placed by the players, do they have to at least mention them at some point?

Finally, a fight, how was it decided who the enemies are, how many there are, etc. Again the random dungeon generator tables, the GM based on player input, the GM based on their own ideas?

I assume the actual actions taken by the enemies are up to the GM at least...

Treasure seems straightforward, a combination of 'the player wished it here' and items from a random table. We covered that part previously.

This leaves out social interactions, I assume those are mostly persuasion rolls against some DC or the equivalent of that, i.e. the players obviously cannot decide whether the other side agrees and to what, and it does not sound like the GM has much of a say in that either (short of deciding the NPC was convinced by the arguments and no roll is needed)

 

[mamba]

It amazes me how tone deaf this is.

and they complain about us going to ridiculous extremes... when we do, we at least do so to illustrate a point (and often enough it is still them, just to not have to concede that something should be impossible)

 

[FrogReaver]

as promised (threatened?) here are some questions about this, still trying to nail down your role

As a basis I am using the Delian Tomb, cannot really think of a more basic adventure, but it should be sufficient for this. Maybe some people are somewhat familiar with it already, it not, here is a link

The Delian Tomb

The Delian Tomb is a low-level dungeon designed by Matt Colville using Dungeonographer in the first episode of his Running the Game series on Youtube. The dungeon is meant to serve as a simple ready-made adventure for a new dungeon master to run for new players on short notice, containing 5...

mcdm.fandom.com

You can basically get everything you need for this discussion from just the picture

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/mdcm/images/b/b9/Delian_Tomb.jpg/revision/latest/

I am not basing this on any edition of D&D, I am more looking for Burning Wheel, Torchbearer or ones like that. I am not familiar with the, but they sound a lot more rules-heavy and procedural than D&D

Ok, here goes:

Who is coming up with the premise? I assume the players do, i.e. players decide 'we want to look for treasure in an old tomb and fight some goblins', or is any of that part not based on player input? E.g. do you pick the monsters?

What if these are new players and instead they say 'we want to look for treasure in an old castle ruin and fight a dragon'? Are you thinking 'fine, if that is what they want, we figure out the rest along the way', or do you point out immediately that fighting a dragon is maybe not the best idea for a 1st level party?

Is it much less direct than that? The players just say something about looking for treasure and the rest is up to the GM / some random tables?

Let's say the players made it close to the entrance, there are some goblin guards hiding in the bushes near the entrance. How did they get there? Did the GM decide to place it there because that is a reasonable thing to do? Are there some rules for generating random dungeons that would have had to result in this? Is that something the players must have hinted at for them to be there? Can the players ever be surprised by some goblins jumping out of the bushes? Not if they are the ones responsible for placing them there.. at least not the players, their chars still might, according to the rules.

For that matter, who decided the layout of the tomb? Some random dungeon generator in the rulebook, the GM based on descriptions the players gave (i.e. doing their best to incorporate everything the players said their chars have heard, but some stuff original to the GM), the GM based on their own ideas?

This to me becomes relevant when it comes to things like traps and secret doors, these cannot really be placed by the players, do they have to at least mention them at some point?

Finally, a fight, how was it decided who the enemies are, how many there are, etc. Again the random dungeon generator tables, the GM based on player input, the GM based on their own ideas?

I assume the actual actions taken by the enemies are up to the GM at least...

Treasure seems straightforward, a combination of 'the player wished it here' and items from a random table. We covered that part previously.

This leaves out social interactions, I assume those are mostly persuasion rolls against some DC or the equivalent of that, i.e. the players obviously cannot decide whether the other side agrees and to what, and it does not sound like the GM has much of a say in that either (short of deciding the NPC was convinced by the arguments and no roll is needed)

I think this is a legit attempt to understand that style of game better. But there’s such a degree of misunderstanding inherit in many of these questions I don’t know where to begin the answer.

I guess foremost those games don’t run on dungeon maps at all. Think more theatre of the mind but a higher level of abstraction than D&D. Combat resolution happens in them the exact same as everything else.

I'll try to explain BitD (though i'm only a novice in the system)

Score
BitD is about playing a criminal gang (referred to as crew) of which their are a few varieties and the action all takes place in a score (think non downtime). This is established in the rules. The setting is also established in the rules. The players establish their PC's, the type of Crew they are. Players choose the score - will loop back around to how.

Once a score is chosen the GM jumps to the action. An engagement roll is made to determine what kind of Position the PC's are in (Note: Position is a mechanical term not just a natural language one. The better your position the more weighted the die outcomes are in your favor.

So the action might start with an average engagement roll. Rolls a 4. You are in a risky position when the action starts. The lookouts see you coming down the alley.
PC Paul: I pull out my knife and stab one in the neck
GM sets effect: standard effect - you'll achieve what you expect. Rolls an action roll: 4. Success with a Consequence. GM: narrates. Paul you stab one in the neck like the trained killer you are but before you were able to he yelled for help and 5 other guards armed with knives enter the alley. Numbers have shifted so much in their favor that you are now in a desperate situation.

Continue until that challenge is overcome. Then proceed to the next challenge. Until you either need to retreat or the score is finished.

 

[Maxperson]

They're not a random stranger claiming to be a noble. That's false.

They are a noble. People (the king, his guards, his servants) are inclined to think the best of them. They are welcome in high society (Buckingham Palace). People assume they have the right to be wherever they are (Buckingham Palace). Other people of high birth (the royal family) treat them as a member of the same social sphere. You can secure an audience with a local noble (the King) if you need to.

There's no difference between your noble claiming to be a noble in a land that has no idea who he is, and my well dress rogue acting like a noble and making the same claim. Hell, your noble could be dressed in rags and stink from not bathing for 2 months and a bit you guys would want the ability to work, but a well dress rogue with the mannerisms of a noble? That would be stepping on toes! Except the ability should work at LEAST as well for the rogue as the noble as far as the people in the far away land are concerned.

 

[Maxperson]

No no you must obviously force your players to accept the outcome they hate

Nice dodge.

I'll ask it again, "Can the players break the rules while the GM is bound by them?"

 

[Maxperson]

no it isn’t, it is an obvious conclusion based on what you said, or maybe you need to look up what a non-sequitur is

Yep! The debate is about player agency and your question was very clearly designed to find out where he places the limits of player agency, which is probably why the evasion happened. A lot of people don't like to be commit to clear lines and establish exactly what it is that they are thinking and arguing.

 

[Maxperson]

It amazes me how tone deaf this is.

LOL 8 interactions typed out in that post and not one of them comes close to anything our side has been saying.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

This thread has resulted in several posters getting reported for a variety of bad behaviors: threadcrapping, personal attacks, excessive snark and more besides. When I took a look around, I saw more problematic stuff that didn’t get reported, probably because it was perceived to be right on the edge.

I’m sorely tempted to simply lock this thread. But since enough of the problems are not quite rising to being ban or warning point worthy, I’m not going to.

YET.

 

[mamba]

I guess foremost those games don’t run on dungeon maps at all. Think more theatre of the mind but a higher level of abstraction than D&D.

that is fine, I just took a basic D&D adventure as the starting point, if it does not map well to the system, then so be it. If e.g. there are no maps and stuff like that is handwaived and TotM only, just say so.

I assume the basic ingredients still exist, namely: 1) enemies to overcome, who / what decides who those are, don’t care for the actual combat rules, only whether this is all system driven (which it sounded like for BitD from your description), or the GM has some agency here, 2) NPCs to interact with, what decides who they are and their reactions, 3) secrets to uncover (the ambushes, traps and secret doors of the example adventure), how are they placed and discovered, 4) treasure, we got that already

 

[pemerton]

A random stranger getting an audience with the king of England because they claim to be a noble from some unheard of land?

Not because they claim to be a noble. Because they are a noble. Hence, as I already posted, people are inclined to think the best of them, and they are welcome in high society. People assume they have the right to be wherever they are, and other people of high birth treat them as a member of the same social sphere.

As I also posted, it seems to be one natural pathway to the audience would be going to an upmarket party. But obviously there are many other possibilities.