D&D General What is player agency to you?

[mamba]

Assuming you know the noble to meet with. You might be in a foreign city/land and just want to meet with a local noble to get the lay of the land or whatever.

I don’t see it, you then still will have to figure out who is a noble and request an audience with them.

You might not know the noble you will encounter beforehand, but that does not change the fact that it is one specific noble.

Or you do have a specific noble in mind, but they make you meet with a lesser noble first because they don't know you from Adam.

that sounds like perfectly good reason to say ‘get lost’ instead and already violates the feature description of being recognized as noble

 

[hawkeyefan]

What we have a problem with is being told the features must work even when we find it unreasonable for them to do so

They don’t have to work if you don’t want them to.

and that if we don't allow them to work in those circumstances that we taking away player agency

Denying their use is taking away agency.

and then there's the accusation that we want to consistently deny these features when that couldn't be further from the truth.

I don’t think that anyone is denying their use for the sole purpose of taking away agency or anything like that. Well, with the possible exception of @bloodtide .

Much better answer!
I think it's fair to say that your initial responses definitely missed a core element of my question. That sure seemed intentional to me at the time, and doubly so after I explained what was missing and your answer still ignored that core element. I trust your motives were good, but your actions were certainly avoiding a core part of my question.

I feel like I said pretty much the same thing!

we must have a very different understanding of how this works…

In my mind you approach a noble, as in one specific noble. You do not go to a room full of nobles and shout ‘one of you will have to meet me, figure out who’

What typically happens in my games is the player says something like “I’m a noble… can I arrange a meeting with one of the local lords?”

Then I may respond with something like “Interesting. The Baron clearly wouldn’t meet with you… who’d you have in mind?”

And then we go from there. Maybe the player has an idea, maybe we figure it out together. Whatever works for the situation.

the answer ‘there isn’t one’ is available… in fact that should have really been the obvious one, yet here we are

But why would anyone say that based on the way the question was posed?

“How would you explain the egg on the lifeless plane?”

Anyone attempting to answer it is gonna try and actually answer it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Assuming you know the noble to meet with. You might be in a foreign city/land and just want to meet with a local noble to get the lay of the land or whatever.

Or you do have a specific noble in mind, but they make you meet with a lesser noble first because they don't know you from Adam. Lots and lots of variables/permutations depending on the campaign, circumstances, etc.

I think what's trying to be said is, the player can read that feature in a way that would lead him to believe he can get an audience with any noble he chooses. If that's the case and the DM says no you can't secure an audience with this specific local noble, but this really low ranking one offers to meet with you instead, then such a player is likely going to have that same feeling of loss of agency because the DM said no to him.

 

[mamba]

They don’t have to work if you don’t want them to.

did you just shift positions?

What typically happens in my games is the player says something like “I’m a noble… can I arrange a meeting with one of the local lords?”

Then I may respond with something like “Interesting. The Baron clearly wouldn’t meet with you… who’d you have in mind?

wait, what? You deny audiences with nobles (essentially, you outright say ‘no’ before they even try…)?

So basically you are on our team

But why would anyone say that based on the way the question was posed?

because it is the only possible answer that makes any kind of sense

 

[Micah Sweet]

did you just shift positions?

I think what they're saying is that they would find a way to make them work that is acceptable to them, but you don't have to.

 

[hawkeyefan]

did you just shift positions?

What? No. I was addressing @FrogReaver specifically. He doesn’t have to allow them to work if he doesn’t want to. No one does.

I prefer to do so. But that doesn’t mean I’m saying it’s the only way to play. I’ve said this what seems like dozens of times now.

 

[FrogReaver]

I feel like I said pretty much the same thing!

I'll give ya it was very similar. I felt like there were a few key differences though.

 

[hawkeyefan]

wait, what? You deny audiences with nobles (essentially, you outright say ‘no’ before they even try…)?

So basically you are on our team

No, not at all. I’ve said I work with the players to find a way for the ability to work. I don’t deny the ability… they’ll get an audience with a local noble in a way that makes sense.

because it is the only possible answer that makes any kind of sense

Any kind of sense? No.

The example given was that someone else had traveled to this lifeless plane, and they had supplies with them. They lost them or they perished, and the characters then discovered the supplies.

That actually makes sense. It’s incredibly unlikely, but it’s coherent. It’s plausible that it could happen.

But the initial scenario is so stupid, that there’s not really going to be an answer that satisfies your sniff test. Which is fine… but don’t blame it on the answer, blame it on the crap hypothetical.

 

[Mort]

I think what's trying to be said is, the player can read that feature in a way that would lead him to believe he can get an audience with any noble he chooses. If that's the case and the DM says no you can't secure an audience with this specific local noble, but this really low ranking one offers to meet with you instead, then such a player is likely going to have that same feeling of loss of agency because the DM said no to him.

Which is why the player and DM need to discuss the workings of the feature and get onto the same page. As long as they both agree as to how the feature works at that table there shouldn't be any issues.

 

[FrogReaver]

Which is why the player and DM need to discuss the workings of the feature and get onto the same page. As long as they both agree as to how the feature works at that table there shouldn't be any issues.

I don't disagree, but practically speaking that's not going to happen every time for every feature.