D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Mort]

Always works is an extreme version of being useful.

Most of the features do not "always work..." and the even the ones that do only "always work..." in the sense that "something" happens not necessarily what the PC wants

 

[Micah Sweet]

See now that's a little different in that it seems unconcerned about the “impossibility” of an audience. To me, this renders the background feature pretty much entirely useless, except perhaps if we say that a local noble would only meet with other nobility.

But at least this method fits with a standard type of gaming procedure where we go to the dice to see how it goes.

My point all along is that I want to see the audience… that’s the scene with potential consequence. So I don’t mind an ability getting us right to that scene.

Think of it along the lines of not putting essential stuff behind a secret door.

Yeah. I don't like abilities like that, for the reasons stated above, and avoid using them if possible. My wanting to see an audience isn't a good enough reason to make it happens no matter what, and neither is the player wanting that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But the ability says "a local noble" not "a specific noble"

So there's no guarantee of a specific noble anyway. If the noble in question doesn't want to meet them, the ability doesn't force it in any way.

As I said, most of the time it should work.

 

[hawkeyefan]

that is not the point and no answer was forced. They could simply have said 'in this case it is impossible, but features are never that absolute in the game', instead they chose to make it work when there was no way for it to, proving the point

No, the hypothetical was offered and a solution was requested.

that is not the issue either, the point you are wrong about is that it was not a useless hypothetical, it illustrated the above point, just like it was meant to

It illustrates jack.

Is this a scenario you’ve seen in play? The characters wind up on a lifeless plane and then look for eggs?

I mean, what is that even supposed to be? It’s idiotic.

Yes. I was asking 'if i wanted to run it how you would but then ran into a situation where there wasn't a way that wasn't ridiculous for me.'

Okay… so If you wanted to so what I’d do, here are the steps I’d take.

1) Think of a way that allows the ability to work- if that fails
2) Think more- if that fails
3) Talk to the players and solicit feedback and ideas- if that fails
4) Think some more- if that fails
5) Either deny the ability or allow something ridiculous to take place, whichever seems more acceptable to the players

That’s what I’d do.

Sounds like you just want to be done with this tangent, so let's agree to just be done with it.

It’s not that. It’s that you called my answer a cop out. Which is BS… I answered in good faith as best as I could.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, the hypothetical was offered and a solution was requested.



It illustrates jack.

Is this a scenario you’ve seen in play? The characters wind up on a lifeless plane and then look for eggs?

I mean, what is that even supposed to be? It’s idiotic.



Okay… so If you wanted to so what I’d do, here are the steps I’d take.

1) Think of a way that allows the ability to work- if that fails
2) Think more- if that fails
3) Talk to the players and solicit feedback and ideas- if that fails
4) Think some more- if that fails
5) Either deny the ability or allow something ridiculous to take place, whichever seems more acceptable to the players

That’s what I’d do.



It’s not that. It’s that you called my answer a cop out. Which is BS… I answered in good faith as best as I could.

That totally makes sense from your perspective, I get it. As you've been trying to say, game however you like!

 

[FrogReaver]

Because there seems to be a refusal to accept that the people advocating for the features being useful ARE NOT advocating for some narrative magic beat the DM into submission feature.

No one here has a problem with the features being useful. What we have a problem with is being told the features must work even when we find it unreasonable for them to do so - and that if we don't allow them to work in those circumstances that we taking away player agency - and then there's the accusation that we want to consistently deny these features when that couldn't be further from the truth.

If all that was said was the feature should typically be useful and that the feature shouldn't be denied when there's a reasonable way for it to work then you wouldn't have gotten any pushback.

I think where the disagreement really lies is in what to consider a 'reasonable way for the feature to work'.

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay… so If you wanted to so what I’d do, here are the steps I’d take.

1) Think of a way that allows the ability to work- if that fails
2) Think more- if that fails
3) Talk to the players and solicit feedback and ideas- if that fails
4) Think some more- if that fails
5) Either deny the ability or allow something ridiculous to take place, whichever seems more acceptable to the players

That’s what I’d do.

Much better answer!

It’s not that. It’s that you called my answer a cop out. Which is BS… I answered in good faith as best as I could.

I think it's fair to say that your initial responses definitely missed a core element of my question. That sure seemed intentional to me at the time, and doubly so after I explained what was missing and your answer still ignored that core element. I trust your motives were good, but your actions were certainly avoiding a core part of my question.

 

[mamba]

But the ability says "a local noble" not "a specific noble"

So there's no guarantee of a specific noble anyway. If the noble in question doesn't want to meet them, the ability doesn't force it in any way.

we must have a very different understanding of how this works…

In my mind you approach a noble, as in one specific noble. You do not go to a room full of nobles and shout ‘one of you will have to meet me, figure out who’

 

[mamba]

No, the hypothetical was offered and a solution was requested.

the answer ‘there isn’t one’ is available… in fact that should have really been the obvious one, yet here we are

 

[Mort]

we must have a very different understanding of how this works…

In my mind you approach a noble, as in one specific noble. You do not go to a room full of nobles and shout ‘one of you will have to meet me, figure out who’

Assuming you know the noble to meet with. You might be in a foreign city/land and just want to meet with a local noble to get the lay of the land or whatever.

Or you do have a specific noble in mind, but they make you meet with a lesser noble first because they don't know you from Adam. Lots and lots of variables/permutations depending on the campaign, circumstances, etc.