D&D General Renamed Thread: "The Illusion of Agency"

[Bill Zebub]

Ok, you're still not quite getting what I'm driving at. Which one of those options is getting towards what you want from your OP? We've got stakes, we've got consequences, what back and forth and GM adjudication is closest to what you want? Once we figure that out, we can extrapolate some broader things.

I guess as written your last option...the Dungeon World approach...is closest, but I was also trying to describe how I would adjust some of the other options you presented. Because I don't always do things exactly one way.

 

[Theory of Games]

The decision to roll dice to decide an outcome is a DM decision and should be held to the same standard as all other DM decisions.

What if a D&D player wanted to roll dice to make an (unprovoked) attack? What if a GURPS player wanted to make a Fast Talk roll to deceive an NPC? What if an Apocalypse World player wants to roll to Read a Sitch after walking into a dive-bar?

How would any of those be "a DM decision"?

 

[zakael19]

I guess as written your last option...the Dungeon World approach...is closest, but I was also trying to describe how I would adjust some of the other options you presented. Because I don't always do things exactly one way.

Cool!

So, in very general terms: you are speaking of a mode of play where the player can make a fictional statement (I want to shove the gate up), you agree on the stakes (this is important because owl bears are about to chase you down), and there's a consequence (if you fail, what that means is it's going to take you too long to force it open - the owl bears will get here and it's a totally different conflict)? And then the player gets to roll their dice with some possible outcomes?
a) the barbarian gets to join his wizard friend (and maybe they need to see how they'll escape or hold them off or whatever)
b) the barbarian flubs his roll, the owl bears get there, and now you get to make a DM decision: what do they do.

Is this roughly accurate, using an example, to what you'd like to see out of play? Note something very important here: I put the skill usage in the player's hands.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

What if a D&D player wanted to roll dice to make an (unprovoked) attack? What if a GURPS player wanted to make a Fast Talk roll to deceive an NPC? What if an Apocalypse World player wants to roll to Read a Sitch after walking into a dive-bar?

How would any of those be "a DM decision"?

That might be taking some liberties with what I said, but it's a good sign that this conversation has run it's productive course. So I will excuse myself at this point as I have little interest in semantics here. I hope all is well

 

[Bill Zebub]

Is this roughly accurate, using an example, to what you'd like to see out of play? Note something very important here: I put the skill usage in the player's hands.

Can you be more specific about what you mean in the italicized part? Because the way I play non-DW games, players don't "use skills" they describe actions (goal & approach).

That might result in the mechanical invocation of a skill, but it might not.

What I try to get players to un-learn is, "I use Persuasion..." while reaching for dice.

 

[zakael19]

Can you be more specific about what you mean in the italicized part? Because the way I play non-DW games, players don't "use skills" they describe actions (goal & approach).

That might result in the mechanical invocation of a skill, but it might not.

What I try to get players to un-learn is, "I use Persuasion..." while reaching for dice.

Right, so you don't actually want the DW thing.

So does the rest of the situation work for you, roughly, except "we agree on the consequence and then I go yeah sure, roll an athletics check?"

 

[Umbran]

What if a D&D player wanted to roll dice to make an (unprovoked) attack? What if a GURPS player wanted to make a Fast Talk roll to deceive an NPC? What if an Apocalypse World player wants to roll to Read a Sitch after walking into a dive-bar?

Broadly - the player's agency is over what the character attempts to do, not the mechanic for how that attempt is resolved. So, they choose the fictional action, not specifically to roll dice.

 

[TiQuinn]

In general I agree with you, but in this scenario if you are fending off attacks from owlbears every turn, it's fine to keep re-trying. The roll doesn't mean "are you objectively capable of lifting this gate?" it is "can you do it quickly while being attacked?"

But this only works if the barbarian (or somebody) is choosing this strategy over another choice. If there's literally no option but raise the gate or die....yeah that's not a decision.

My thoughts with this was to give him a retry prior to being attacked, i.e. he bought more time by threatening the eggs to give himself another shot at the gate without taking damage. IME, once battle is engaged, it usually benefits the PC to just fight. Moving away and taking attacks of opportunity just don’t measure up to fighting the monster at that point, which I think is a bit of a problem with 5e.

In a way, the party actually benefits somewhat from the portcullis. The wizard is now safe on the other side and still can cast spells free from taking harm from the owlbears.

 

[Bill Zebub]

My thoughts with this was to give him a retry prior to being attacked, i.e. he bought more time by threatening the eggs to give himself another shot at the gate without taking damage. IME, once battle is engaged, it usually benefits the PC to just fight. Moving away and taking attacks of opportunity just don’t measure up to fighting the monster at that point, which I think is a bit of a problem with 5e.

Yeah this scenario changes dramatically depending on how many other PCs (or NPC allies) are around.

In a way, the party actually benefits somewhat from the portcullis. The wizard is now safe on the other side and still can cast spells free from taking harm from the owlbears.

Exactly what I said upthread. The wizard's ability to misty step through the portcullis helps everybody. As the barbarian player I would be thrilled the wizard was able to do that.

 

[zakael19]

Broadly - the player's agency is over what the character attempts to do, not the mechanic for how that attempt is resolved. So, they choose the fictional action, not specifically to roll dice.

Unless you're a spell caster, right?

Which again, circles us back to: if we're looking to achieve the sort of play the OP is looking for, once there's stakes and consequences and the GM identifies them, what stops the player from going "cool, let me make an Athletics check rq to see what happens."