D&D General What is player agency to you?

[EzekielRaiden]

An alternative analogy would be that of a conductor. GM has the job of bringing the disparate authorings of all players into a harmonious whole. GM need not decide destination at all, but still need to find common ground between how the one player wishes to resolve it, and how others might. Additionally, the players sat down to "say things they would not otherwise want to say" and GM - conductor - must bring those strains through, too.

If the GM is not deciding any destination, then what are they doing? How does one "find common ground" without either (a) reaching a compromise with someone else, such that both parties determine the end result and thus recognizing their independent agency, or (b) declaring what the result will be, which the other(s) must simply accept (or walk away from, but I assume people who want to keep playing)?

How does one "harmonize"? What does that mean? Because to me, the "harmonizing" is not at all like being a conductor. In fact, I find the analogy completely inapplicable and useless--to the point that I nearly responded to it backwards because I thought you were calling the players conductors. Conductors assist other people in their performance of a piece. GMs do not "assist" players at all, in the GM-authorship mode being discussed here. GMs are assisted by players. It is the GM actually doing the action; the players simply provide inputs.

Whose hands are on the metaphorical instrument--the player, or the GM? Because as far as I can tell, it's exclusively the GM. That's why every single time, someone asks something to the effect of, "Well, did you clear it with the GM well in advance?"

Conductors don't "clear" orchestra performers well in advance of the performance of a piece. They do nothing like "clearing" anything. If the performer won't perform the piece as intended, they won't be asked to perform the piece at all.

The analogy does not hold.

And, separately from all of the above; WHAT "player authorings"? Per the repeated questions from at least two different posters in this thread, everything must be (a) "cleared" through the GM well in advance, and (b) the GM must be allowed to draft up appropriate content. But the latter thing IS the authorship. There is no player involvement in it. Players can insert hoped-for notions into the GM-authorship black box, and potentially get the payoff out at the other side. They don't actually participate in the authorship process at all.

 

[Oofta]

If the GM is not deciding any destination, then what are they doing? How does one "find common ground" without either (a) reaching a compromise with someone else, such that both parties determine the end result and thus recognizing their independent agency, or (b) declaring what the result will be, which the other(s) must simply accept (or walk away from, but I assume people who want to keep playing)?

How does one "harmonize"? What does that mean? Because to me, the "harmonizing" is not at all like being a conductor. In fact, I find the analogy completely inapplicable and useless--to the point that I nearly responded to it backwards because I thought you were calling the players conductors. Conductors assist other people in their performance of a piece. GMs do not "assist" players at all, in the GM-authorship mode being discussed here. GMs are assisted by players. It is the GM actually doing the action; the players simply provide inputs.

Whose hands are on the metaphorical instrument--the player, or the GM? Because as far as I can tell, it's exclusively the GM. That's why every single time, someone asks something to the effect of, "Well, did you clear it with the GM well in advance?"

Conductors don't "clear" orchestra performers well in advance of the performance of a piece. They do nothing like "clearing" anything. If the performer won't perform the piece as intended, they won't be asked to perform the piece at all.

The analogy does not hold.

I don't determine a final destination. I decide NPCs, factions, etc. and then throw out plot hooks that the group can pursue or come up with directions of their own. You don't have to run linear adventures in D&D. I make the road, give the players a map and they go wherever they want. Occasionally I'm building the road just before they turn the corner.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't determine a final destination. I decide NPCs, factions, etc. and then throw out plot hooks that the group can pursue or come up with directions of their own. You don't have to run linear adventures in D&D. I make the road, give the players a map and they go wherever they want. Occasionally I'm building the road just before they turn the corner.

And that is exactly when you exercised your agency, and thus did not allow the players to exercise theirs.

They have the freedom to visit whatever exhibits in the museum they like. They cannot define new parameters for what constitutes an exhibit, nor can they visit something outside the museum.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What is going to happen if I tell you that my PC is in Townshire because my mentor told me that's where I can find the herbs that will let us brew the potion that will revive my cousin from the magical sleep the local warlock tyrant has placed him into?

i'd say it depends, how did these factors (of which there are quite a few in this single sentence alone) come to be?
i would say all the individual things you are trying to establish here would be
1-there is a local(ie:small scale) warlock tyrant
2-you have a cursed brother
3-you have a mentor
4-the potion exists and can cure the curse
5-you know of the potion's existence and what you need/how to create it
6-you know where it is possible to aquire those herbs
7-that this is one of those locations in which you can reasonably expect to find those herbs

and are they each because:
1) you put it in your backstory and OK'ed it with your GM
2) it is merely a reiteration of campaign events that you have played out
3) something that you're right now saying is a thing

the first four points are entirely valid to exist in the world to me, they are small scale enough to be included in things directly connected to the character's 'world' but i would definitely not appreciate learning about their existence in the middle of a session, 5 and 6 seem like things that should be discovered through play, but not to the extent that i would entirely forbid them from being declared, 7 though is something that i would not allow you to just declare, it is something that should be discovered through play or at least, given a degree of uncertainty to if the information is actually true.

 

[FrogReaver]

They have the freedom to visit whatever exhibits in the museum they like. They cannot define new parameters for what constitutes an exhibit,

What game allows this after play starts?

 

[Oofta]

And that is exactly when you exercised your agency, and thus did not allow the players to exercise theirs.

They have the freedom to visit whatever exhibits in the museum they like. They cannot define new parameters for what constitutes an exhibit, nor can they visit something outside the museum.

I will create places and NPCs if they want to pursue something I hadn't expected, it happens all the time. No, they don't dictate details, just like I don't dictate details of a museum when I visit. I do get to decide what museums I go to though.

But what do I know. Players can't have any agency unless they're creating the world. Just like in real life I have no agency because I can't imagine that museum and have it pop into existence. What a load of ... never mind.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What game allows this after play starts?

Dungeon World most certainly does.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I will create places and NPCs if they want to pursue something I hadn't expected, it happens all the time. No, they don't dictate details, just like I don't dictate details of a museum when I visit. I do get to decide what museums I go to though.

But what do I know. Players can't have any agency unless they're creating the world. Just like in real life I have no agency because I can't imagine that museum and have it pop into existence. What a load of ... never mind.

You certainly do not have creative agency in the real world. If you thought that was a rebuttal, you are grossly mistaken.

Agency as a player can involve things that would be completely impossible for a person to do in their own, natural life. Just as every other part of a roleplaying game can involve things that are completely impossible for a person to do in their own, natural life.

Did you seriously think that "just as in real life I have no agency because I can't imagine that museum and have it pop into existence" would be a rebuttal when we literally are talking about owlbears and elves and invisibility potions?

 

[Oofta]

Dungeon World most certainly does.

All games have constraints. You can't just make up anything at all in DW, your choices are limited by the rules of the game. You can't just declare you have an "I win" button. But the moment anyone starts talking about D&D suddenly there's no freedom of choice at all because there are constraints and limitations to what the players can do. Meanwhile if we suggest that players in PbtA games can do whatever they want, that shows complete ignorance of how the games work.

It's like trying to nail jello to the wall establishing that no game lets people do whatever they want.

 

[FrogReaver]

Dungeon World most certainly does.

I’m no dungeon world expert but that doesn’t sound right to me. Can you give an example?