D&D (2024) Class spell lists and pact magic are back!

[Mirrorrorrim]

ON TOPIC:

Pact magic is back. I prefer that so I can appreciate that response.

Spell lists are back. I preferred spell lists until bards were given a choice of list and I was warming up to the arcane/divine/primal spell lists at that point.

I hope pact magic changes away from just being short rests and uses a different recharge mechanic.

But it is interesting how a sigle bit of design can sway a person to consider something they were previously dismissing. That has happened to me too.

 

[Remathilis]

I hope pact magic changes away from just being short rests and uses a different recharge mechanic.

I predict a 1 min, once per day slot recharge and maybe a slightly faster slot progression is the best we're getting.

 

[Chaosmancer]

it is not my job, but that does not mean I cannot think for myself. If you want to assume that WotC is oh so smart and us mere mortals can only marvel at their ability, and any perceived issue is just us not understanding their genius, keep on doing what you are doing. I suggest a little less blind faith and more critical thinking however.

Ah yes, I forgot. Assuming the competence of a family-owned business from a Fortune 500 company that runs multiple of the most successful brands on the planet (little things, like Transformers, My Little Pony, GI Joe, Power Rangers, Dungeons and Dragons) is just blind faith in super geniuses!

I mean, you do REMEMBER that WoTC is owned by Hasbro, right? And is currently their most successful brand? And literally the only thing I'm assuming is that they have done basic quality control practices that anyone who has ever sold something to the public would do?

But right, I lack critical thinking skills. Why assume billion dollar companies do basic good business practices.

As to the issue, if they were so great at this, it should not have been this ridiculously easy to find an issue, I mean it was on the first try, with a ridiculously small sample size.

What you found was miscommunication in human writing. Seriously. Stop and think about this. You post on the internet. Are you trying to tell me you have never once before seen someone misunderstand something that someone else wrote? That this is so unprecedented that it constitutes shaking your faith in the competence of the entire company?

If you want to show that there is no issue, then show it, do not just say that you can think of a reason why it might not be one. Anyone can make wild, unsubstantiated claims, so that is not all that convincing.

I guess we end it here, not interested in repeating this another 10 times, and the rest of your post was not really more than you using a lot of words to say ‘I got nothing, but you have too little to convince me’

Wild and unsubstantiated claims like.... this highly successful company that has been in business for decades likely did something any first year business major would know to do?

Here, I'll make MORE wild and unsubstantiated claims. A Fire Station Chief likely knows not to put a frozen turkey in an oil boiler. A Dentist probably knows the correct way to brush their teeth. A school teacher likely knows how to spell words and do algrebra. WILD CLAIMS! All of them lacking evidence! How could I possibly believe in such god-like skills!

There is one thing I am interested in however, because to me your answer shows that you have not given any thought to what they are testing for, or how what they are asking may fit (or not fit…) into that… that is why I said a little less blind faith and some critical thinking would be a good idea




then what is the 80% threshold for? Why are there two thresholds?

Because it is important to know when you have overachieved and should not seek to improve further.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Did you just straight up ask them to prove a negative?

Their entire premise seems to be built on the fact that since they found a single person online who says they didn't understand the survey, then WoTC has never quality controlled their decades-long survey process, and we as consumers must demand an investigation.

How else am I supposed to respond? Their entire premise is assuming a negative is true.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Their entire premise seems to be built on the fact that since they found a single person online who says they didn't understand the survey, then WoTC has never quality controlled their decades-long survey process, and we as consumers must demand an investigation.

How else am I supposed to respond? Their entire premise is assuming a negative is true.

Not asking the logically impossible? Just not replying at all?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not asking the logically impossible? Just not replying at all?

If I was constitutionally capable of not responding, do you think I'd be this deep into it?

And the point wasn't that I actually expected them to prove a negative. The point was to show that, despite their claims or rock solid logic... they are proposing all of this with a fundamental lack of information. They know NOTHING about the internal process of sifting through this data, they know nothing about how Wizards even conceives of this data internally, or when designers get to see it. Everything is pure speculation based on the conviction that because they found a single person who misunderstood text-based communication, WoTC is full of incompetent rubes who cannot run a business.

 

[mamba]

Why assume billion dollar companies do basic good business practices.

Why indeed, there are plenty examples that prove the assumption that big companies (or all departments within one) are always run well wrong.

I rather use the specific than the generic, and here the specific is how the survey is conducted. The one person out of 10 is just icing on that cake.

Since you have spent zero effort to understand the survey approach, and implicitly trust WotC, I am not surprised that you see no problem with it. Maybe look into that over your desperate attempts to point out that somehow WotC is infallible because they make more money than a mom-and-pop store.

I have told you repeatedly that you will have to show me wrong on that, yet all you do is talk about how great WotC presumably is, with nothing to back that up either. All just unsubstantiated claims. This does not cut it, I dismissed it the last few times and I will keep on doing so.

Because it is important to know when you have overachieved and should not seek to improve further.

That does not at all address why there are two thresholds. What is the 70% threshold for, what is the 80% threshold for?

I grant you the 80% one means the thing is good enough to not require further improvement, so what is the 70% one for?

 

[MoonSong]

I disagree. I like the subclass at 3rd. I like the potential story of the new sorcerer not yet precisely understanding their spark and the player and DM can create an on-screen narrative of that spark fully manifesting.

Great let me have the teamates: wizard who still struggling to cast his first cantrip and the cleric that can only hear voices in their head and doesn't know they re their deity's yet... oh or fighter that has just picked her first spear. Without choice of theme, there's nothing to distibguish a sorcerer as a sorcerer at first level. What else do you suggest goes at first level? The boring uninspired mandatory blasting spell from last packet?

Edit: And BTW, one can have that narrative with the current sorcerer. The player choosing the theme at first level has nothing to do with the character knowing it from the get go. Because for the character nothing about being a sorcerer is a choice, nor even intentional. I've played characters that are figuring out their magic in third edition. Having a theme at first level is completely orthogonal to that narrative, while lacking it just plain disables it.

 

[Amrûnril]

Their entire premise seems to be built on the fact that since they found a single person online who says they didn't understand the survey, then WoTC has never quality controlled their decades-long survey process, and we as consumers must demand an investigation.

How else am I supposed to respond? Their entire premise is assuming a negative is true.

This isn't about a single person. There are more examples than that in this thread alone. People casting "disapprove" votes didn't know that those votes would be counted as votes against further iteration. And there's no logical reason they should have known, because the language of the survey gave no indication that this would be the case.

"Do you approve of X, as presented in this playtest packet?" and "Would you like to see a revised version of X?" are intrinsically different questions. The idea that simple numerical cutoff values allow WotC to reliably infer preferences about one from questions about the other is wildly implausible. Whereas a misuse of polling data arising from some form of error or miscommunication within a large and complicated institution would be about as surprising as water being wet.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Great let me have the teamates: wizard who still struggling to cast his first cantrip and the cleric that can only hear voices in their head and doesn't know they re their deity's yet... oh or fighter that has just picked her first spear. Without choice of theme, there's nothing to distibguish a sorcerer as a sorcerer at first level. What else do you suggest goes at first level? The boring uninspired mandatory blasting spell from last packet?

Edit: And BTW, one can have that narrative with the current sorcerer. The player choosing the theme at first level has nothing to do with the character knowing it from the get go. Because for the character nothing about being a sorcerer is a choice, nor even intentional. I've played characters that are figuring out their magic in third edition. Having a theme at first level is completely orthogonal to that narrative, while lacking it just plain disables it.

So what you're saying is that you as a player can pick the theme at first level by picking themed spells while not having it actually mechanically kick in until third. In other words there's nothing of value that's lost by shunting it back to third - while it no longer overloads newbies so much.

What goes at first level? The class. Your first spells. If you're telling me there's nothing to distinguish a sorcerer with Grease and Thunderwave from one with Sleep and Shield I'm simply going to laugh.