D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Oofta]

I thought I did? :-/

Which part did I miss, and I'll try again.

Insulting a pack of wolves into attacking is only one aspect. There are many situations where you could not goad people into attacking, especially not by walking up to you and getting into melee. If you insult a group of non-combatants, they aren't going to attack, they're going to either cower or run away. They may call guards to attack you for them. Go to a wizard convention and they may attack but it's going to be with spells from a safe distance. Try to start a fight with well trained guards and, unless you're posing an imminent threat, it's likely they're not going to attack. Even if they do attack, they'll often sound an alarm first.

Walk into the equivalent of a biker bar and want to start a bar fight? Let's do a few quick skill checks (not necessarily charisma based) or just walk up and punch the biggest guy there and we're off to the races. But people aren't ever going to be compelled to automatically approach and attack. You have to piss them off enough while they also reasonably to believe that they can take you, even if their judgement may be clouded by anger. The attitudes, predisposition, capabilities of the targets is always going to matter to me.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Insulting a pack of wolves into attacking is only one aspect. There are many situations where you could not goad people into attacking, especially not by walking up to you and getting into melee. If you insult a group of non-combatants, they aren't going to attack, they're going to either cower or run away. They may call guards to attack you for them. Go to a wizard convention and they may attack but it's going to be with spells from a safe distance. Try to start a fight with well trained guards and, unless you're posing an imminent threat, it's likely they're not going to attack. Even if they do attack, they'll often sound an alarm first.

Walk into the equivalent of a biker bar and want to start a bar fight? Let's do a few quick skill checks (not necessarily charisma based) or just walk up and punch the biggest guy there and we're off to the races. But people aren't ever going to be compelled to automatically approach and attack. You have to piss them off enough while they also reasonably to believe that they can take you, even if their judgement may be clouded by anger. The attitudes, predisposition, capabilities of the targets is always going to matter to me.

Yes but we can fix that by making it a combat-only ability.

People are nitpicking edge cases.

 

[Oofta]

Yes but we can fix that by making it a combat-only ability.

People are nitpicking edge cases.

Changing the label on an apple doesn't make it an orange. You want something I don't doesn't make my opinion an edge case.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes but we can fix that by making it a combat-only ability.

People are nitpicking edge cases.

Not really. It shows that designing rules properly is not that easy and there are a lot of situations and interactions you have to take into account.

 

[CreamCloud0]

i'd be willing to let such a taunt ability to work on automatons or mindless creatures simply with the phrasing of being able to present yourself as a threat to them.

and a line about it only working on hostile or unfriendly entities would prevent it from aggroing a marketplace of ordinary commoners

 

[Oofta]

i'd be willing to let such a taunt ability to work on automatons or mindless creatures simply with the phrasing of being able to present yourself as a threat to them.

and a line about it only working on hostile or unfriendly entities would prevent it from aggroing a marketplace of ordinary commoners

If those automatons are equipped with lasers ... sorry ... have a ranged radiant attack ... why would they approach?

EDIT: also, if you're an imminent threat to a potentially hostile creature why do you need a special ability?

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

If those automatons are equipped with lasers ... sorry ... have a ranged radiant attack ... why would they approach?

EDIT: also, if you're an imminent threat to a potentially hostile creature why do you need a special ability?

Because those potentially hostile creatures might chose to attack someone else?

 

[Oofta]

Because those potentially hostile creatures might chose to attack someone else?

Having a game benefit justification for it working doesn't change the nature of the feature.

 

[CreamCloud0]

If those automatons are equipped with lasers ... sorry ... have a ranged radiant attack ... why would they approach?

i didn't realise it was specifying melee attacks, i'd be fine with 'affected targets must target an attack or effect against the user and can't move further away than they currently are'

EDIT: also, if you're an imminent threat to a potentially hostile creature why do you need a special ability?

just for the guaranteed control over the battlefield, i realise it's looking at it as a game but isn't one of the complaints about martial's tanking ability (or rather inability) is that they lack any way to actually make anyone target them?

 

[Oofta]

i didn't realise it was specifying melee attacks, i'd be fine with 'affected targets must target an attack or effect against the user and can't move further away than they currently are'

just for the guaranteed control over the battlefield, i realise it's looking at it as a game but isn't one of the complaints about martial's tanking ability (or rather inability) is that they lack any way to actually make anyone target them?

I simply think there are many situations where it should not work. Even if there were limits on the targets, what about situational limits? Your PC is a prisoner and you want the guards to attack you as a distraction but they're incredibly disciplined and they don't consider you a threat. The targets fear repercussions of attacking because they know they'll face the wrath of their leader. The targets are capable of combat but are pacifists. You may be a threat but they know the guy in robes twiddling his fingers in the back is a bigger threat. The guards have no emotions and cannot be angered into attacking foolishly.

Game mechanical benefits don't justify giving a non-caster a spell-like ability for me.