Is "GM Agency" A Thing?

[Hussar]

What do you mean by "playing out"? Back when I did things with dungeons, I often went to the trouble of figuring out why and how things were where they were. Even in my earliest days, my first (over the top) dungeon was literally a monster condominium.

Playing out means exactly that. Did you roll initiative? Track hit points and healing? Roll attacks? No? Then you didn’t play it out. You simply declared x to be true.

 

[Hussar]

Played out? Probably nobody.

But if the PCs ever want to dig into how Acererak became a Demi-lich then the DM will eventually need to know how it happened, and when.

Still not played out. All just dm declarations. No game involved.

Not sure why you’re arguing with me by agreeing with my point.

 

[Hussar]

That sounds like a cop-out to me. If a player asks a question about the world, and that question should have an answer, then it's the DMs job to figure out what it is so that information is available.

Still not played out though.

You’re still just writing fiction. The game world only exists insofar as you decided X was true or false. It has no independence whatsoever.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That sounds like a cop-out to me. If a player asks a question about the world, and that question should have an answer, then it's the DMs job to figure out what it is so that information is available.

It may be a cop out, sure. I generally wouldn’t approach a game this way myself, but it can be done. Easily.

If it was me, I’d use a roll to determine what the players may know, but I’d make sure whatever it is somehow matters to play. Otherwise, whatever tale I come up with is superfluous.

Perhaps, but that sounds like the boring option.

I don’t know… as presented, it didn’t matter to the module’s resolution. And sometimes some mystery is a good thing.

You guys are the ones who’re always saying the PCs aren’t special and the world shouldn’t revolve around them, and the world should seem “real”… like the kind of place where we don’t always get answers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Still not played out though.

You’re still just writing fiction. The game world only exists insofar as you decided X was true or false. It has no independence whatsoever.

It has independence from the players, outside of the PCs actions. NPCs continue to pursue their goals regardless of whether the PCs know about it. Maybe I decide. Maybe I roll on a table. Maybe I use a subsystem I devised beforehand. The point is, the goal of having a world that moves independently of PC action is achieved.

 

[Maxperson]

Still not played out though.

You’re still just writing fiction. The game world only exists insofar as you decided X was true or false. It has no independence whatsoever.

While I agree with you that there are a myriad of ways the DM can use to decide the outcome from flipping a coin to playing it out fully, I don't agree with this. Independence = outside of the PCs. Whatever is happening is happening independent of them, not independently of the DM, which it seems like you are talking about here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It may be a cop out, sure. I generally wouldn’t approach a game this way myself, but it can be done. Easily.

If it was me, I’d use a roll to determine what the players may know, but I’d make sure whatever it is somehow matters to play. Otherwise, whatever tale I come up with is superfluous.



I don’t know… as presented, it didn’t matter to the module’s resolution. And sometimes some mystery is a good thing.

You guys are the ones who’re always saying the PCs aren’t special and the world shouldn’t revolve around them, and the world should seem “real”… like the kind of place where we don’t always get answers.

That doesn't mean there aren't answers, just that the PCs don't always find them.

And I don't run "scenarios", so whether or not information is relevant to one is not relevant to our game. If the PCs take action, even if that action is to ask a question of limited value to their current goals (whether they know it or not), then my job is to have that information.

We don't tell stories. We do stuff, see what happens, and maybe turn that into a story afterwards.

 

[Hussar]

While I agree with you that there are a myriad of ways the DM can use to decide the outcome from flipping a coin to playing it out fully, I don't agree with this. Independence = outside of the PCs. Whatever is happening is happening independent of them, not independently of the DM, which it seems like you are talking about here.

Well, considering the topic is GM Agency, of course I'm talking about the DM.

Maybe I've lost the thread a bit here. We were talking about how engaging the players in world building might help engage the players more into the game. The response was that it's not the player's place to world build and that the DM should be solely responsible for world building so that the world is independent of the players which allows the players to explore the setting.

The setting has no independence. That's patently ridiculous. It's a complete fabrication. Nothing happens in the game world without the DM declaring it to happen. Allowing the players to influence what happens in the game world (outside of characters) has no bearing on whether or not a world is independent. It's flat out not.

Something that happens in the game world independent of the characters in the game world - who cares? Unless it somehow impacts the characters in some way, it doesn't matter any more than it matters whether or not it rained in Yukuhashi, Japan matters to anyone in the world other than people who happen to live or work in Yukuhashi.

There is no such thing as an independent game world.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, considering the topic is GM Agency, of course I'm talking about the DM.

Maybe I've lost the thread a bit here. We were talking about how engaging the players in world building might help engage the players more into the game. The response was that it's not the player's place to world build and that the DM should be solely responsible for world building so that the world is independent of the players which allows the players to explore the setting.

I think the thread has wandered a bit, because the independent portion is independent of the PCs/players. If the PCs are interacting, then it's not independent of them. The setting cannot be independent of the DM unless the DM has given authority to the players to author setting material.

The setting has no independence. That's patently ridiculous. It's a complete fabrication. Nothing happens in the game world without the DM declaring it to happen. Allowing the players to influence what happens in the game world (outside of characters) has no bearing on whether or not a world is independent. It's flat out not.

Something that happens in the game world independent of the characters in the game world - who cares? Unless it somehow impacts the characters in some way, it doesn't matter any more than it matters whether or not it rained in Yukuhashi, Japan matters to anyone in the world other than people who happen to live or work in Yukuhashi.

It is important, though, because it establishes that the world lives and breathes without the PCs being present, which gives the world much more depth than if the world only consists of what the PCs can see and reach.

If the PCs go to a town and kill a bunch of undead, but the necromancer gets away, the DM should figure out where the necromancer is going and what he's going to do. The party may never get back to that area of the world again and may never hear anything about what happens, but if 2 years later in game time they happen to enter a town 150 miles from where they met that necromancer and find the town a literal ghost town with the necromancer in charge, that adds huge depth. And it happened independently of them.

If instead the necromancer grew much more powerful and threatened that entire country, they'd hear rumor of it 3 countries over where they are currently adventuring. It may not impact the characters in any way other than as an informational rumor, but it still adds a bunch of depth to the world.

That's why an independent(of the PCs) world is such a big deal to a lot of us.

There is no such thing as an independent game world.

Except in the case of being independent of the PCs/players.

 

[Lanefan]

It may be a cop out, sure. I generally wouldn’t approach a game this way myself, but it can be done. Easily.

If it was me, I’d use a roll to determine what the players may know, but I’d make sure whatever it is somehow matters to play. Otherwise, whatever tale I come up with is superfluous.

I'd rather have too much info available to me as DM than too little. If that means prepping more than I end up using, so be it.

I don’t know… as presented, it didn’t matter to the module’s resolution. And sometimes some mystery is a good thing.

You guys are the ones who’re always saying the PCs aren’t special and the world shouldn’t revolve around them, and the world should seem “real”… like the kind of place where we don’t always get answers.

Agreed.

That said, just because the PCs don't or can't find the answers doesn't excuse me-as-DM from knowing, or at least putting some thought into, what those answers are.