Is "GM Agency" A Thing?

[Reynard]

But what does “keep turning” mean?

For me, it might mean I simply decide what happened in the interim.

For you, it might mean a series of rolls on tables or some other procedure.

There appears to be a potential world of difference between those two methods such that summarizing them both as “the world keeps turning” seems ill suited.

What is the "world of difference"? From the perspective of the PCs, I mean.

If the PCs decide to ignore the growing threat of the Thieves Guild and head off into the wilderness for 5 months, and upon their return they find that the thieves have killed the burgermeister and installed themselves as the overt authority in the city, does it matter whether the GM decided that ws a natural progression of the state of play or whether they rolled on some tables to discover that?

 

[Hussar]

It is important, though, because it establishes that the world lives and breathes without the PCs being present, which gives the world much more depth than if the world only consists of what the PCs can see and reach.

Meh. The players really don't care about your fanfic. They don't. I'm sorry, but, they don't care. It's hard enough to get players to read an actual campaign document, let alone give a fig about what's happening three countries over. The whole "depth" thing is largely DM facing. The players care about what they are doing and what impacts them directly.

And the reason for this is because the players are not allowed to have any impact on the game world beyond their characters. As a player, why should I possibly care what NPC 1 does to NPC 2 when it has nothing to do with my character? I have nothing connecting me to those two NPC's.

Now, if I am allowed to actually create part of that "three countries over" country, then, now, as a player, I am invested in that to some degree. That's something I know about and have some influence over.

Otherwise? The only person who cares is the DM.

 

[Hussar]

What is the "world of difference"? From the perspective of the PCs, I mean.

If the PCs decide to ignore the growing threat of the Thieves Guild and head off into the wilderness for 5 months, and upon their return they find that the thieves have killed the burgermeister and installed themselves as the overt authority in the city, does it matter whether the GM decided that ws a natural progression of the state of play or whether they rolled on some tables to discover that?

But, again, this is just the DM rolling up the plot wagon. The players have zero influence over this. They aren't there. The DM has decided that the thieves guild has taken over the town. Great plot hook. Maybe? The players had zero influence in designing the town. They maybe know a couple of NPC's in the town, if, after several months of play, they haven't forgotten them already.

Again, this is all 100% the players passively engaging in the setting. When they came back to town, it could have easily been a dragon has set up camp and is demanding tribute. Or maybe the local druids are getting up to shenanigans. Or goblins did it. Or whatever plot the DM has decided is going to be the adventure in this town.

At no point are the players active.

 

[Reynard]

Meh. The players really don't care about your fanfic. They don't. I'm sorry, but, they don't care. It's hard enough to get players to read an actual campaign document, let alone give a fig about what's happening three countries over. The whole "depth" thing is largely DM facing. The players care about what they are doing and what impacts them directly.

And the reason for this is because the players are not allowed to have any impact on the game world beyond their characters. As a player, why should I possibly care what NPC 1 does to NPC 2 when it has nothing to do with my character? I have nothing connecting me to those two NPC's.

Now, if I am allowed to actually create part of that "three countries over" country, then, now, as a player, I am invested in that to some degree. That's something I know about and have some influence over.

Otherwise? The only person who cares is the DM.

I think you are overlooking the point: the fact that the news from 3 countries over is about a villain the party failed to capture or kill makes it meaningful. You seem to be suggesting that only the immediate thing at the moment matters, which is shallow and ephemeral and suggests you are just as well off playing one shots instead of a campaign. Which is fine if those are your preferences, but one of the draws of campaign play is seeing the fallout from previous decisions.

 

[Reynard]

But, again, this is just the DM rolling up the plot wagon. The players have zero influence over this.

They have all the influence over it. They had choices -- deal with the thieves guild or go off to the distant adventure site -- and they chose to ignore the thieves guild. The state of the city on their return is based on the decision they made.

Do you think the world should freeze in place as soon as the PCs move out of view, like in a video game?

 

[hawkeyefan]

What is the "world of difference"? From the perspective of the PCs, I mean.

Why would the PCs have a perspective on play processes?

The players likely have opinions about it, though.

If the PCs decide to ignore the growing threat of the Thieves Guild and head off into the wilderness for 5 months, and upon their return they find that the thieves have killed the burgermeister and installed themselves as the overt authority in the city, does it matter whether the GM decided that ws a natural progression of the state of play or whether they rolled on some tables to discover that?

It would to me, yes. Given how conversations about this kind of stuff typically go, I don’t expect I’m alone in that.

 

[Reynard]

It would to me, yes. Given how conversations about this kind of stuff typically go, I don’t expect I’m alone in that.

First of all, would you know?

Second, can you articulate why it would matter?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But, again, this is just the DM rolling up the plot wagon. The players have zero influence over this. They aren't there. The DM has decided that the thieves guild has taken over the town. Great plot hook. Maybe? The players had zero influence in designing the town. They maybe know a couple of NPC's in the town, if, after several months of play, they haven't forgotten them already.

Again, this is all 100% the players passively engaging in the setting. When they came back to town, it could have easily been a dragon has set up camp and is demanding tribute. Or maybe the local druids are getting up to shenanigans. Or goblins did it. Or whatever plot the DM has decided is going to be the adventure in this town.

At no point are the players active.

I mean the example seems to be about the world being affected by the actions of the characters or lack thereof. This sort of living breathing world is also responsive to the character actions, and allows them to shape it. I strongly feel this is for benefit of the players and makes them feel like their choices matter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Meh. The players really don't care about your fanfic. They don't. I'm sorry, but, they don't care. It's hard enough to get players to read an actual campaign document, let alone give a fig about what's happening three countries over. The whole "depth" thing is largely DM facing. The players care about what they are doing and what impacts them directly.

And the reason for this is because the players are not allowed to have any impact on the game world beyond their characters. As a player, why should I possibly care what NPC 1 does to NPC 2 when it has nothing to do with my character? I have nothing connecting me to those two NPC's.

Now, if I am allowed to actually create part of that "three countries over" country, then, now, as a player, I am invested in that to some degree. That's something I know about and have some influence over.

Otherwise? The only person who cares is the DM.

I'm just happy that somehow has finally figured out gaming for us all, so we can stop playing in our inferior style and embrace the Truth of @Hussar and the objective facts of his teachings. Thanks again.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They have all the influence over it. They had choices -- deal with the thieves guild or go off to the distant adventure site -- and they chose to ignore the thieves guild. The state of the city on their return is based on the decision they made.

Do you think the world should freeze in place as soon as the PCs move out of view, like in a video game?

It seems clear to me that they do.